2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

[dr. fragger]

As a mentor who's been with the team for a number of years, the students felt comfortable approaching me with some issues which they had spotted and requested that I go with them for moral support while they went to take up matters with the referees.

The most disturbing of errors was where one game win was not recorded for our team--our alliance partners got the points, but we did not. I approached Mark Breadner about the issue and it was fixed 45 minutes after the game was over, within 20 minutes after I breached the issue.

I can understand that there is a certain human element involved in these matches, that errors do happen, and all that jazz. The second issue (which had a direct effect on our seating) was that in game 2 (linky) we got onto the coopertition bridge, invited 4307 along with us (and due to a lack of driver training, nearly flipped them in the process (sorry!)), however they did make it up there with us! I'm unsure of 3117's intensions, but before we were on the bridge, they had positioned themselves in such a way that would have made it impossible to score the 2 coopertition points for those involved; however the outcome was that 0 (zero) points were rewarded. A similar situation arose in game 53 (linky) where the result was that 1114 was awarded 1 CP (for inviting, I imagine). From what the kids saw, Karthik went 'crazy' and was yelling at the refs, and the refs were trying to calm him down.

It was brought to my attention by the kids, and I agreed that that was an interesting result, so I went with our driver to go discuss the matter with the refs. I was treated with a very poorly initially (ref stated that he had 'no sympathy for a team that says other teams should not be rewarded points' and once I explained the situation his tone changed to one of agreement and sympathy) and instructed to discuss with the head ref. I approached the head ref and explained the situation, and it was explained to me that he did not remember that game and that detailed data was not kept on CP; essentially I was SOL. I thanked him for his time and went back to the pits with the news.

I can understand that people are people, that's all good and well, and it's what makes society an interesting place to be a part of, however when there are key individuals in positions of power within the FIRST community, who are so engrained and invested in one team (as the young blonde woman's tears attested to in 1114's Chairmanship award video), just as in society, there are silly games that silly people play, but you have to be diligent keep your eyes and ears open.

As with everything in life, battles have to be chosen and political games have to be played.

When the dust settles you've got to rise above it all, give praise where praise is due, and cross your fingers extra-hard for next time. Our warchest may be a paultry sum by comparison to the titans out there, but what we lack in deblumes we make up for with wit, character, and good old-fashioned elbow grease.

If anything can be taken away from this past regional, it's what an upset Team 907 has become to the status quo, where I'm confident that we would have gone on to the finals had it not been for a poor design decision regarding the battery placement. It would have been nice to see the 1114/2056 alliance broken up and would have made for far more interested gameplay (that is to say, having two of the Gods go hand-to-hand) as opposed to the ho-hum same-old pairing, with the same-old outcome.

I'll say here the same words that I have said to the kids on Team 907, who designed and built every component with their own two hands: we did not loose; our battery broke free, preventing us from winning.


The opinions expressed in this message are my personal feelings, put forth by my mind and typed my by hands, and are not representative of Team 907, its sponsors, or the martians that fly overhead monitoring our brainy-wavies (where did my tinfoil hat get to... ).

In closing, I may be loud-mouthed and might come across as crass at times, but I sincerely mean no ill-will and I invite debate because we are, after all, human; we are not omni-present beings who can see-all and be everywhere, so with that said if I misunderstood any issue or misrepresented any information, please bring the issue up and correct me--I'm inviting it! I need to know where I've been wrong and would jump at the opportunity to truly be engaged in a civil debate which doesn't reduce to a pissing contest.

We're all here to have fun, to teach, and equally to learn. Once you actively stop learning and seeking out new information, or are resistant to change, I weep for you.

I have such gratitude for those who made the first GTR East @ UOIT happen--it was a fantastic event, run on schedule in a very organized manner. I look forward to many years to come at this new venue and many more working the spirited and varied kids that make up Team 907. More praise needs to be given to all those involved in getting this event going!


If you made it this far I'd like to leave you with these words: more data, less wank; watch the watchers; sky blue, water wet; more news, at 11.



Looking forward to GTR West,
-The Professor.

[Lara Surmak]

Thank you, dr. fragger, that was a much better way of expressing what I wanted to get across.

[Ken Streeter]

Originally Posted by dr. fragger

The second issue (which had a direct effect on our seating) was that in game 2 (linky) we got onto the coopertition bridge, invited 4307 along with us (and due to a lack of driver training, nearly flipped them in the process (sorry!)), however they did make it up there with us! I'm unsure of 3117's intensions, but before we were on the bridge, they had positioned themselves in such a way that would have made it impossible to score the 2 coopertition points for those involved; however the outcome was that 0 (zero) points were rewarded.

Hmm. I can't be sure from watching the video, but I think it looks like 3117 may have designed their robot to be able to do "balance assistance" at the one end, so that when the bridge tips down towards their robot, that end of their robot stops the bridge near the leveled position to make it easier to balance there. It looked to me that they may have actually been trying to help balance the bridge, but didn't know that they would need to back off after the bridge was actually balanced (or didn't know they were still in contact). From watching video of other matches, I'm not sure they ever succeeded at this approach, but it seemed to be a regular strategy.

[Karthik]

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread, but this is too much.

Originally Posted by dr. fragger

I can understand that there is a certain human element involved in these matches, that errors do happen, and all that jazz. The second issue (which had a direct effect on our seating) was that in game 2 (linky) we got onto the coopertition bridge, invited 4307 along with us (and due to a lack of driver training, nearly flipped them in the process (sorry!)), however they did make it up there with us! I'm unsure of 3117's intensions, but before we were on the bridge, they had positioned themselves in such a way that would have made it impossible to score the 2 coopertition points for those involved; however the outcome was that 0 (zero) points were rewarded. A similar situation arose in game 53 (linky) where the result was that 1114 was awarded 1 CP (for inviting, I imagine). From what the kids saw, Karthik went 'crazy' and was yelling at the refs, and the refs were trying to calm him down.

I absolutely did not yell at any of the refs. You can ask each an everyone of them if you'd like. I did yell after that match, because I was quite disgusted by a team intentionally sabotaging a balanced cooperition bridge, and that certain members of the audience were celebrating it.

Originally Posted by dr. fragger

It was brought to my attention by the kids, and I agreed that that was an interesting result, so I went with our driver to go discuss the matter with the refs. I was treated with a very poorly initially (ref stated that he had 'no sympathy for a team that says other teams should not be rewarded points' and once I explained the situation his tone changed to one of agreement and sympathy) and instructed to discuss with the head ref. I approached the head ref and explained the situation, and it was explained to me that he did not remember that game and that detailed data was not kept on CP; essentially I was SOL. I thanked him for his time and went back to the pits with the news.

Please read G41, quoted below for your convenience.

Originally Posted by FRC Game Manual

If the Coopertition Bridge is not Balanced, but a Robot from each Alliance is fully supported by the Coopertition Bridge, each Alliance will earn 1 Coopertition Point.

Originally Posted by dr. fragger

I can understand that people are people, that's all good and well, and it's what makes society an interesting place to be a part of, however when there are key individuals in positions of power within the FIRST community, who are so engrained and invested in one team (as the young blonde woman's tears attested to in 1114's Chairmanship award video), just as in society, there are silly games that silly people play, but you have to be diligent keep your eyes and ears open.

As with everything in life, battles have to be chosen and political games have to be played.

I will not sit by idly as you run down my character and accuse me of affecting the results of this or any other FRC event. This is simply not the case.

Originally Posted by dr. fragger

I have such gratitude for those who made the first GTR East @ UOIT happen--it was a fantastic event, run on schedule in a very organized manner. I look forward to many years to come at this new venue and many more working the spirited and varied kids that make up Team 907. More praise needs to be given to all those involved in getting this event going!

Ironic, since the person you're slandering (me) was the Chairman of the planning committee...

I'm speechless and stunned by actions of some people this weekend, and others in this thread. This isn't the FIRST I've dedicated my last 15 years to.

//Edit: I apologize for ending a sentence with a preposition. I'm too disenchanted at the moment to fix it.

[Grim Tuesday]

When I look at 1114, I push my team to be as good as them, not to demean them. There is nothing more to say, and I wish other teams had this attitude too.

[LeelandS]

I'm all for arguing for a point, and I hate to stifle it if I feel that people can learn and be enlightened by it. And, of course, it's really not my place anymore, but Id suggest that now that Karthik has covered the situation (in a very mild manor, which I personally really admire, since I wouldn't have been able to), we either move on from this subject and go with the rest of whatever discussion can be salvaged from this thread, or just end this thread all together.

Just a suggestion.

-Leeland

[Kishan]

Congratulations to team 2056, 1114 and 1219! Great robots as always.
I would also congratulate team 610, 188 and 3360 for their awesome performance.

Teams have to understand that FIRST is about learning and working together. And if you really want to win then work hard, you cannot just say that other teams are really good.

And Karthik, we missed you as mc. Not that the mc at UOIT was bad but we are just used to seeing you and your exciting introductions.


-Kishan Shah
Team 2935

[basicxman]

Originally Posted by Kishan

And Karthik, we missed you as mc. Not that the mc at UOIT was bad but we are just used to seeing you and your exciting introductions.

It was awesome to see the new MC gain confidence throughout the weekend and get the crowds roaring. I believe Karthik was right there giving him some of the best mentorship a MC could receive.

[ghostmachine360]

Congratulations to 1114, 2056, and 1219 for winning GTRE, 1114 for their RCA, and 1114 for their dual DL Finalists.

And to 1114, thank you for continually being an inspiration to myself and my alma mater. You, your mentors, and your alumni are one of the reasons I believe without a doubt that FIRST is changing our culture. I can only wish to reach the level of discipline and effort that each individual in the Simbotics family employ on a daily basis as I start to do more in volunteering & working with FIRST as an alumni/mentor.

Also, I relish the thought and opportunity to have not 2, but 4 Simbotics Dean's List finalists in our group; an opportunity to work with the best, and to make FIRST better as an organization.

[dr. fragger]

Originally Posted by Karthik

I absolutely did not yell at any of the refs. You can ask each an everyone of them if you'd like. I did yell after that match, because I was quite disgusted by a team intentionally sabotaging a balanced cooperition bridge, and that certain members of the audience were celebrating it.

I apologize for the misinformation I was provided with.

Please read G41, quoted below for your convenience.

Thank you, but the matter still stand of the missing point. It's in the past now regardless.

I will not sit by idly as you run down my character and accuse me of affecting the results of this or any other FRC event. This is simply not the case.

I sorry that I have to bring this up, but you yelled at a girl on our team until she was in tears last regional. Excuse me for saying this, but it's left me personally with a somewhat tarnished image of your moral character in my mind.

Ironic, since the person you're slandering (me) was the Chairman of the planning committee...

Credit where credit is due, what can I say--it was a wonderful event to be a part of, ran on time (and ahead of time!), and all I can do is appreciate your organizational skills and general command over the event. We all had an fantastic time and this is a great new venue for FIRST.

I'm speechless and stunned by actions of some people this weekend, and others in this thread. This isn't the FIRST I've dedicated my last 15 years to.

Don't let it all get to you; as with everything in life, you've got to roll with the punches. We've all been there in one way or another.

//Edit: I apologize for ending a sentence with a preposition. I'm too disenchanted at the moment to fix it.

Apology noted.


The long and short of it goes like this: yes, it's tiring that you guys clean up wherever you go, and yes, it's fantastic to see the top teams bleed, but your team inspires many more to be better and drives their want to one-up you. Take that away from this thread, more than anything, with pride.


P.

[Grim Tuesday]

Please lock this thread, it has turned into nothing but personal attacks.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by dr. fragger

I sorry that I have to bring this up, but you yelled at a girl on our team until she was in tears last regional. Excuse me for saying this, but it's left me personally with a somewhat tarnished image of your moral character in my mind.

Bring it up all you'd like, but don't expect me not to respond with the truth. This student repeatedly broke the rules for the usage of her media badge, including arguing with our head ref when she shouldn't have even been on the field. After multiple warnings, I told her she was no longer permitted to have the badge. No yelling took place, and I stand by my actions. If you'd like to continue this discussion in private, feel free to contact me. If you'd like to continue to bash my team, you can do that as well. If you have a tarnished image of my moral character, there's nothing I can do to fix that. I'm not here to convince you of who I am.

Rise above the hate...

[dr. fragger]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Rise above the hate...

Wise words.


P.

[dtengineering]

It's been a while since I've taken a team out to Toronto, but I have to say that I have a great respect for all the teams out there and the organizing team that puts these events together. I still follow the results with interest. (particularly to cheer for 1241...)

I continue to be amazed at how 1114 puts in such consistantly outstanding performances year after year. I believe this is the seventh consecutive regional championship they have won. I've had a chance to sit down and talk to some of the mentors and students in the past (when you play against them three times at a regional, you kind of want to get to know some of them) and... yeah... they're the real deal. I learned a few things from them that helped make our team better. I keep hoping they will take home the Championship Chairman's one year.

But I also have empathy for teams that feel frustrated by repeatedly losing to an 1114-led alliance. I don't condone that frustration being expressed by name-calling, bullying, or other inappropriate activities, but I do appreciate that otherwise rational, caring people can sometimes do and say things they will later regret.

During the years our team played in Toronto, however, we also played on the west coast. It was fabulous (and healthy) to experience two completely different sets of teams.

I realize it is expensive to take a team on the road (that was, after all, how we got from Vancouver to Toronto...) but it is also healthy. There are excellent regionals in all sorts of exciting places... if a team is feeling frustrated playing in (or near) Ontario then maybe they need a breath of fresh air. It's a great way to make some new FRC friends and keep your focus on what this whole crazy venture is really about.

Believe me... It's a lot easier to take delight in the extreme awesomeness of an 1114/2056 led alliance when you know you don't have to play against them ALL the time.

Jason

[Duke461]

Originally Posted by Karthik

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread, but this is too much.

Karthik,

For once, you are wrong—with the first clause of the sentence, that is. The latter half is correct. I, with the utmost sincereness, thank you for getting involved in this thread, and I ask you to continually get involved in threads that involve you directly and/or indirectly. I do not ask this because i want to read fights, nor arguments, nor ideals that FIRST does not strive for, but because you are a "hidden mentor" to a lot of people, including myself.

I cannot simply express how much of an impact you, and other mentors on Chief Delphi have had on me (Koko Ed, EricH, Akash, etc.). However, I am most certainly going to try. All my life I have been one of the most competitive people you will ever meet. I always want to win, whether it's a basketball game against another school, or a game of monopoly with my family. The worst part is, I always want to make an excuse, or in my mind at times a "reason", as to why I lost, or why he/she won.

Regional competitions, unfortunately, bring out my superfluously competitive nature. I partially consider this to be inherent in myself, but I know it can be controlled. I see, read, and hear about how brilliantly successful teams like 1114 and 2056 are, and my first emotion is jealously. I understand this is wrong, however I believe jealously is simply the evil twin of desiring to emulate, and it can be overcome. My point here is, when I read the aforementioned posts bashing teams like yours, I find myself agreeing with the previous comments, and thinking to myself, Yeah, it's not fair that they have these amazing mentors!, thus being my "excuse", and so on. I then find myself being sucked into these terrible, non-graciously professional opinions.

Seeing you respond to these harsh posts, as professional and mature as humanly possible, is what snaps me back to reality. Swiftly and firmly, but not too aggressively, you knock down every attack placed upon you. You remind me that there are incredibly gifted students out there. You remind me that FIRST is about inspiration, not winning regionals. Most importantly, you remind me that I am acting like a fool and that making excuses will get me nowhere in life.

To put it quite simply, please continue to reply. Please continue to be a hidden mentor. Please continue to show others, and myself included, how to respond maturely and passionately about issues that directly concern oneself. Please continue to post so that people like myself, that may get swayed by these negatives posts, can see the truth. As a junior in High School, I am just now beginning to understand the real world. You, Karthik, probably without realizing it, are helping me to rationally shape a true, honest, and Graciously Professional real world.

With complete sincerity,
Thank you for being a true FIRST mentor.
-Duke

EDIT: P.S. I move to consider keeping this thread open, as per the reasons aforementioned. No, New York, you may NOT abstain from the vote!

Originally Posted by Karthik

//Edit: I apologize for ending a sentence with a preposition. I'm too disenchanted at the moment to fix it.

I'm quite the "grammar police" kind of guy, but I'll let this one slide.