2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

[remulasce]

Both teams don't design and manufacture their own robots. They have professional engineers and mentors do it for them.

That's a pretty serious allegation. Do you have evidence of this, and what standard for "student designed and built" do you hold to be un-GP? I think we all agree that mentors are essential for FIRST teams, can you identify the point at which other teams no longer have an obligation to be GP to them?

I personally see no reason why teams should not get parts sent out for manufacturing. This is a robotics competition, not a metalworking competition. Every team that can get access to professional machining uses it. There's no reason not to.

Now coopertition. 2056 and 1114 always pick each other, and end up winning each time. It's not even a surprise anymore, and I doubt you feel accomplished.

To clarify: The point of this competition is to do the best. That's what motivates people. If 1114 and 2056 always pick each other, and then always win, do you think maybe the reason is because 1114 and 2056 are the best? The idea is for you to do better to beat them, not for people to actively sabotage them. 1114 and 2056 have no responsibility to pick teams they think are worse, just because those teams don't get a chance to win. There are only 3 winning slots at each competition. Nobody deserves a better chance to get them than what they get.

[Chris Fultz]

Keep this clean.

No personal attacks.

No beating of non-living 4 legged beasts allowed.

Or we will add that cool looking padlock to the thread.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz

Keep this clean.

No personal attacks.

No beating of non-living 4 legged beasts allowed.

Or we will add that cool looking padlock to the thread.

I think that's the direction this thread is going Chris and you may have to do such a thing.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

DELETED POST

sigh ...

There are so many things I'd like to say/ask in response to what you've written here, but to be honest I'd rather not do anything more to attract attention to it.

I think instead, I'll just point to this from 2006 to let you know such accusations are not original, and six years later, they're still misguided:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=41

Namaste. Maybe we all one day will spend our energy trying to raise our own level to match that of the competition rather than trying to tear others down.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

Namaste. Maybe we all one day will spend our energy trying to raise our own level to match that of the competition rather than trying to tear others down.

This. Completely sums up the entire discussion. Thank you.

[AlecMataloni]

/endthread

[IndySam]

Any way to just delete that post and responses?

This was a good discussion and I hate to see it derailed by such poor behavior.

[Lara Surmak]

I'm sorry if you all feel this way or if I offended anyone. Yes, they both have their good sides like any other team, but I'm trying to level the playing field so to speak. The design and execution of their robots are too good to be student made. I also went to visit 2056 during last build, and was told by a 2056 parent that one of the mentors designed the robot. I asked (out of curiosity if the rumors were true) an old 2056 driver if the students had much part in robot development, and he got extremely defensive.

Most of what people see on the playing field is money. They win, they get more sponsors to create better robots to destroy the competition.

By the way, I'm not worried about 1114 and 2056 students being inspired, but more everyone on the losing teams. If they see that anything they create is bested every time, they get discouraged and leave.

I'm just dissapointed with how many rookie teams, or even veteran teams, are getting crushed by teams like this. I wish you could see my point of view.

[dr. fragger]

As a mentor who's been with the team for a number of years, the students felt comfortable approaching me with some issues which they had spotted and requested that I go with them for moral support while they went to take up matters with the referees.

The most disturbing of errors was where one game win was not recorded for our team--our alliance partners got the points, but we did not. I approached Mark Breadner about the issue and it was fixed 45 minutes after the game was over, within 20 minutes after I breached the issue.

I can understand that there is a certain human element involved in these matches, that errors do happen, and all that jazz. The second issue (which had a direct effect on our seating) was that in game 2 (linky) we got onto the coopertition bridge, invited 4307 along with us (and due to a lack of driver training, nearly flipped them in the process (sorry!)), however they did make it up there with us! I'm unsure of 3117's intensions, but before we were on the bridge, they had positioned themselves in such a way that would have made it impossible to score the 2 coopertition points for those involved; however the outcome was that 0 (zero) points were rewarded. A similar situation arose in game 53 (linky) where the result was that 1114 was awarded 1 CP (for inviting, I imagine). From what the kids saw, Karthik went 'crazy' and was yelling at the refs, and the refs were trying to calm him down.

It was brought to my attention by the kids, and I agreed that that was an interesting result, so I went with our driver to go discuss the matter with the refs. I was treated with a very poorly initially (ref stated that he had 'no sympathy for a team that says other teams should not be rewarded points' and once I explained the situation his tone changed to one of agreement and sympathy) and instructed to discuss with the head ref. I approached the head ref and explained the situation, and it was explained to me that he did not remember that game and that detailed data was not kept on CP; essentially I was SOL. I thanked him for his time and went back to the pits with the news.

I can understand that people are people, that's all good and well, and it's what makes society an interesting place to be a part of, however when there are key individuals in positions of power within the FIRST community, who are so engrained and invested in one team (as the young blonde woman's tears attested to in 1114's Chairmanship award video), just as in society, there are silly games that silly people play, but you have to be diligent keep your eyes and ears open.

As with everything in life, battles have to be chosen and political games have to be played.

When the dust settles you've got to rise above it all, give praise where praise is due, and cross your fingers extra-hard for next time. Our warchest may be a paultry sum by comparison to the titans out there, but what we lack in deblumes we make up for with wit, character, and good old-fashioned elbow grease.

If anything can be taken away from this past regional, it's what an upset Team 907 has become to the status quo, where I'm confident that we would have gone on to the finals had it not been for a poor design decision regarding the battery placement. It would have been nice to see the 1114/2056 alliance broken up and would have made for far more interested gameplay (that is to say, having two of the Gods go hand-to-hand) as opposed to the ho-hum same-old pairing, with the same-old outcome.

I'll say here the same words that I have said to the kids on Team 907, who designed and built every component with their own two hands: we did not loose; our battery broke free, preventing us from winning.


The opinions expressed in this message are my personal feelings, put forth by my mind and typed my by hands, and are not representative of Team 907, its sponsors, or the martians that fly overhead monitoring our brainy-wavies (where did my tinfoil hat get to... ).

In closing, I may be loud-mouthed and might come across as crass at times, but I sincerely mean no ill-will and I invite debate because we are, after all, human; we are not omni-present beings who can see-all and be everywhere, so with that said if I misunderstood any issue or misrepresented any information, please bring the issue up and correct me--I'm inviting it! I need to know where I've been wrong and would jump at the opportunity to truly be engaged in a civil debate which doesn't reduce to a pissing contest.

We're all here to have fun, to teach, and equally to learn. Once you actively stop learning and seeking out new information, or are resistant to change, I weep for you.

I have such gratitude for those who made the first GTR East @ UOIT happen--it was a fantastic event, run on schedule in a very organized manner. I look forward to many years to come at this new venue and many more working the spirited and varied kids that make up Team 907. More praise needs to be given to all those involved in getting this event going!


If you made it this far I'd like to leave you with these words: more data, less wank; watch the watchers; sky blue, water wet; more news, at 11.



Looking forward to GTR West,
-The Professor.

[Walter Deitzler]

Last year, I had never been to a robotics competition, never seen the power of great teams competing. Then I joined my high schools FRC team and we built a PVC and wood robot. After that robot was shipped, I was watching live webcasta and happened to see 1114 at GTR-E. I was instantly inspired. They have such a clean and well functioning robot every year, and it is hard to not be inspired by them. When I see a great robot, I want to strive to build something to compete with it, I don't get shut down because it is better than my robot. Team should be inspired to do want to be like those teams, not to want to cripple them so that they don't win. All I am saying is that I respect the better teams, not fell hurt because they are so good.

[Sean Raia]

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

I'm sorry if you all feel this way or if I offended anyone. Yes, they both have their good sides like any other team, but I'm trying to level the playing field so to speak. The design and execution of their robots are too good to be student made. I also went to visit 2056 during last build, and was told by a 2056 parent that one of the mentors designed the robot. I asked (out of curiosity if the rumors were true) an old 2056 driver if the students had much part in robot development, and he got extremely defensive.

Most of what people see on the playing field is money. They win, they get more sponsors to create better robots to destroy the competition.

By the way, I'm not worried about 1114 and 2056 students being inspired, but more everyone on the losing teams. If they see that anything they create is bested every time, they get discouraged and leave.

I'm just dissapointed with how many rookie teams, or even veteran teams, are getting crushed by teams like this. I wish you could see my point of view.

What you said in bold is simply not true.
Had THE REST of this been your original post, im sure a constructive conversation would have started.
I'm glad you have chosen to tune things down though, as your first post in this thread was extremely frustrating to many people.

[Aren Siekmeier]

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

Most of what people see on the playing field is money. They win, they get more sponsors to create better robots to destroy the competition.

Money is definitely important in this competition, but how do you think these teams get their money? Hard work. And the only they accomplish anything with their resources is through more hard work.

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

By the way, I'm not worried about 1114 and 2056 students being inspired, but more everyone on the losing teams. If they see that anything they create is bested every time, they get discouraged and leave.

I'm just dissapointed with how many rookie teams, or even veteran teams, are getting crushed by teams like this. I wish you could see my point of view.

It's definitely important that students are inspired on any team, but preventing one team from excelling will not accomplish this. Our students will meet with disappointment in life, and they have to be able to learn from it, and also to acknowledge the accomplishments of those who did succeed (and maybe learn a thing or two from them as well).

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

I asked (out of curiosity if the rumors were true) an old 2056 driver if the students had much part in robot development, and he got extremely defensive.

As a student who had designed an awesome robot, wouldn't you?

[Lara Surmak]

Thank you, dr. fragger, that was a much better way of expressing what I wanted to get across.

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

I'm sorry if you all feel this way or if I offended anyone. Yes, they both have their good sides like any other team, but I'm trying to level the playing field so to speak.

If the playing field is one of these Y height = better in all aspects

the best way to level it is to bring the rotation point up, not the high side down.

I hope you get that someday

[Aren Siekmeier]

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill

If the playing field is one of these

the best way to level it is to bring the rotation point up, not the high side down.

I hope you get that someday

You can either bring one side down, or the other up. Which do you have control over? Which results in a better overall outcome?