2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

[dr. fragger]

Originally Posted by Matt1114

Just to be clear, 1114 put together funding proposals to our school board, so they could purchase robotics kits for every school. We did this in hopes of fostering interest in STEM education in the Niagara region. This was not a case of us throwing around bags of our own money. It was us working to reform education, and convincing our school board to put an emphasis on STEM education. I'm not sure how you can see this as a bad thing.

Ah, that's quite fantastic; great work!

How large is the school board down there?


P.

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

For the people who can see where I'm coming from, thank you. It's nice to know that other people have noticed this

A lot of people have been mentioning that the superior robots are something to strive for. I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.

Ummmmmm.....in 2008 I was a senior and built a swerve that made JVN jealous (he said it himself to one of his colleagues)

Also the team i was a part of 1625 had a self employed architect as the main "engineering" mentor

oh, also we went 3-2 whole season against them in 2008 with their beautiful piece of engineering simplicity, and then had a robot in 2009 I think they'll admit came out swinging better than they did.

If these the top tier wasn't around who would I strive to beat?
I have the utmost respect for them.

step it up, stop trying to validate mediocrity

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by PriyankP

The reason why this matters to me is because I tried to get certain influential people at my university to see how amazing FIRST is by sending out a few links and I (foolishly) included a link to this thread. At this point I really hope that they decided to not read everything in this post after the first 2 pages. It will not only be embarrassing for me, but it will also hurt FIRST because of very few bitter individuals.

Sometimes, Moderators have been known to 'split' threads when discussions veer away from the original purpose of the thread or when another topic is introduced into the initial thread and deserves its own.

I watched as a Week One thread veered into an intense discourse and it was frustrating to see that thread become overwhelmed. Maybe individuals who want to discuss outcomes of their competition that are going to be emotional, controversial, or spark intense discussions, could start a separate thread after the event and call it something like, Aftermath, or something.

I'm sure there are teams who would love to post about their experiences at the regionals but can't quite get around all of the landmines. This is just an .02.

Jane

[dtengineering]

It's been a while since I've taken a team out to Toronto, but I have to say that I have a great respect for all the teams out there and the organizing team that puts these events together. I still follow the results with interest. (particularly to cheer for 1241...)

I continue to be amazed at how 1114 puts in such consistantly outstanding performances year after year. I believe this is the seventh consecutive regional championship they have won. I've had a chance to sit down and talk to some of the mentors and students in the past (when you play against them three times at a regional, you kind of want to get to know some of them) and... yeah... they're the real deal. I learned a few things from them that helped make our team better. I keep hoping they will take home the Championship Chairman's one year.

But I also have empathy for teams that feel frustrated by repeatedly losing to an 1114-led alliance. I don't condone that frustration being expressed by name-calling, bullying, or other inappropriate activities, but I do appreciate that otherwise rational, caring people can sometimes do and say things they will later regret.

During the years our team played in Toronto, however, we also played on the west coast. It was fabulous (and healthy) to experience two completely different sets of teams.

I realize it is expensive to take a team on the road (that was, after all, how we got from Vancouver to Toronto...) but it is also healthy. There are excellent regionals in all sorts of exciting places... if a team is feeling frustrated playing in (or near) Ontario then maybe they need a breath of fresh air. It's a great way to make some new FRC friends and keep your focus on what this whole crazy venture is really about.

Believe me... It's a lot easier to take delight in the extreme awesomeness of an 1114/2056 led alliance when you know you don't have to play against them ALL the time.

Jason

[Diriye]

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

Personally, I think that...

...before you critisize every other team to conspiring against you, take a good look at yourself first.


*Side note: I actually wasn't at the competition last weekend, but I'm sure my ex-team would never initiate something like that*

Sometimes, I wish I was still an FLL kid...

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.

This is what I call a self-fulfilling prophecy. "We don't have a chance" turns into "Why should we even try" turns into "we don't have a chance" again, only worse.

Most of what I, as an ME senior in college, do every day is stuff that a high school student could probably do if given the equations and values to use. What separates a high school student from me is that I've got extra experience, and hopefully better judgement when it comes to engineering. (I also have an understanding of why the equation is the way it is and what it does.)

To say that the "same resources" goal is unattainable is, quite frankly, defeatist. It's reasonably attainable to get to similar resources with some hard work. And in this game, resources don't always matter. Use of the resources you do have does--I could have a full CNC shop that gets used on "bling" (and a budget to match) and I could easily get beaten by a kitbot or kitbot on steroids built by a team with hand tools where the team uses those hand tools very effectively.

High schoolers do indeed have a chance against an engineer in this competition. It's happened like that several times. But it's better if the students and the engineers are working together. That's what many of these top teams have figured out and mastered.

[Allison K]

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

For the people who can see where I'm coming from, thank you. It's nice to know that other people have noticed this

A lot of people have been mentioning that the superior robots are something to strive for. I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.

If a lack of resources (financial, human, material, experience, etc.) is an insurmountable challenge for you/your team at this time, perhaps you could consider a program such as FTC or VEX in which such resources have less on an impact on performance on the field. Both programs could be taken up either instead of or in addition to your FRC participation, and may bring about the knowledge and experience necessary to overcome your FRC challenges.

~Allison

[Libby K]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hreadid=104497

I feel like this is pretty relevant, especially since people are so quick to start harassing each other.

Maybe sharing stories will be a good way to stop it. As a bunch of people have said, let's build each other UP, not tear each other down. If you think there's a discrepancy between teams... learn from the successes.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

For the people who can see where I'm coming from, thank you. It's nice to know that other people have noticed this

A lot of people have been mentioning that the superior robots are something to strive for. I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that in FIRST students are supposed to do all the work themselves.

[akoscielski3]

Originally Posted by Lara Surmak

For the people who can see where I'm coming from, thank you. It's nice to know that other people have noticed this

A lot of people have been mentioning that the superior robots are something to strive for. I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.

Me?

Throughout the past two years i have trained myself in SolidWorks, and how to design. I designed about 10 chassis this year alone. And have even started to invent things or come up with ideas to invent.

This season I designed our robot all by myself. For 2 and a half weeks i was in a corner of the build room, in my room, or in class (shh my teachers dont know) designing our 2012 robot DROID. I taught myself how to design, how to make things work on a robot, and how to approach the task at hand. YES I AM A STUDENT IN GRADE 11! We built the robot (yes, us students) in 2 weeks. My dad's company water-jet cut all the sheet metal parts and bent the ones that needed to be bent. Did this take away form me learning? NO. In industry you dont always make a part that you use in an assembly. You get someone else to do it. Or you may design something, and then have someone else build and make it for you. These may be bad examples though. I still got all the knowledge of designing and building an amazing FRC robot. I have to say that our robot this year looks professionally built and works like a pro. JUST LIKE 1114 or 2056, or 188 and 610 for that matter.
So to answer your question about a student doing as well as a pro engineer. Yes a student can do as good.

Guess what. This student designed and built robot is undefeated in 2012, and won the teams First regional ever, Smoky Mountains, with team 234 and 3259.

Get informed before saying a student cant do as good as a professional engineer in the FIRST World.

[Bochek]

Hi all,

I just want to check in with a few comments.

First off, Congrats to the winning alliance, it was well deserved.

To 1114 and 2056, I am always amazed and inspired by the quality of both your robots and your teams. You both work insanely hard to accomplish your goals and your success is very well deserved.

Having competed against both of you for now what will be the 6th straight year, I can tell you that to the students, the Canadian regionals have become somewhat disappointing knowing who is going to win before they even show up. I think this has forced some Canadian teams to travel across the border. (I can assure you that this was NOT the reason for 2200 and 2386)

With that in mind, It is my opinion that this is the first year that the GDC has done a (very) good job of providing a way to level the playing field by allowing teams to choose who they wish to co-operate with. Unfortunately as we saw at UOIT, this came with some unintended political consequences.

I will admit, i was on the edge of my seat the entire 59th match, in hope that the coopertition bridge would remain unbalanced. I think that everyone will agree that most of the people attending the regional would LOVE to see a finals where 1114 and 2056 where on separate alliances.

Unfortunately in competition, any team that stands in your way of 1st place is your enemy, and any enemy of your enemy is your friend. Both of these teams have been sitting in the #1 spot for the last 6 or more years. And the targets on their heads have grown accordingly. I fully expect sometime in the next two Ontario regionals for teams to work as hard as possible, and succeed at splitting up these 2 teams in the elimination rounds. Making for what will probably be the most exciting regional of the year. I hope they do it well within the rules of the games, and without any malicious actions.

Again I have nothing bad to say about either of these teams. I would hope that every last team attending would look up to the quality of 1114 and 2056

- Bochek

[Kyle Love]

Originally Posted by Libby K

If you think there's a discrepancy between teams... learn from the successes.

Well said Libby.

Everyone who has seen 1114 evolve into the beast they are now can thoroughly respect their accomplishments.

[santosh]

Originally Posted by Wing

There is a similar phenomenon down here in the Atlanta are with Team 2415 and their sweeping of regionals lately. I'm going to say it right now: They earned every single bit of the money They Raised, every single regional victory The Students won through intelligence, strategy, and skill, and they deserve all of the praise they get.

I hope 1002 doesnt screw 2415 over at the bridge considering i was instrumental in getting 1002 2 of their RCAs and 2 of their EIs and served as their president for 2 years... and then started 2415 when i was a belligerent freshman in college. I would be a little upset about that and would probably call you some mean names.
But no worries, in like 9 years im gonna throw fat stacks at a team and collect awesome mentors to help develop super children to dominate the world at FRC.

But seriously guys, this is HS robotics. Lets all cool out a little. These are 15 year old hormonally charged kids. Most of these kids Pre-pubescents with no understanding of a lot of the issues at hand. Hopefully this issue can be self goverened without some ridiculous justice league GDC enforcement that other have suggested on here.
I am confident that the spirit of FIRST (whatever that means these days, is it trademarked yet?) will rectify this situation through education and hard work. No need to berate young children. There is a big difference in yelling and mentoring (although the lines are often blurred in the 2415 shop lolz jk). And when I say mentoring, i mean life mentoring. Like not only teaching the kids how to do things in the shop, but how to act and conduct themselves even when things are going wrong. DUH!!!

And to be honest, the teams that are being ostracized could probably take a step back and look at how to rectify their image. Images dont just come from nowhere and there is always a way to fix a misconception (There are a few big name teams that i thought were donkey butts for a while at comp till i actually got to sit down and hang with them).

Forgive me if this doesnt make sense as i have been studying for the past 15 straight hours, but in summation:
1) You spend THOUSANDS of dollars for less than 30 minutes on the competition field. spend that time showing the world what you have, not trying to take away from what others do have.
2) If you think your public image is bad, do something about it to show others that it isnt.
3) And hey, lets all try and whine a little less.

p.s. DONT YOU GET MY YOU GRAMMAR NAZIS coughandrewschreibercough

p.p.s. KONY 2012 - do it for the kids (DIFTK)

p.p.p.s. Laura Samrak (or however you spell your username), you are a phenomenal troll. Almost as good as poohbear.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

There is absolutely no reason why any team cannot excel at first as long as they have the determination to do so. I'll use my team as an example. For years our team was struggling to win a regional after winning the world chairmen's award in 2008. The robot itself became the prime focus during build season and every year we did our very best to perfect it in every way we can. Every year we went more and more beyond to make each year a more successful year. For example in 2010, we built our first practice bot along with our regular robot. It was hard because we don't have a very large sponsor base and usually us students and mentors have to pitch in parts out of our own pockets. This practice bot though allowed us to continue developing and practicing with our robot and led us to having the best robot we ever had. In 2011 we extended our mentorship and for the first time had a mechanical engineer on our team and also founded a partnership with FRC 39/FTC 4314. Continuing to find ways to improve your team is key to being successful and it led us to finally winning a regional after 10 years. This year we are still improving ourselves. We don't have a cad class nor have ever used cad. So we taught ourselves cad and for the first time have cadded our robot before it is built. Just look at our past robots. You can see a dramatic improvement in each one and that is with the about the same number of students working on it and about the same amount of money. You are your own limitation. Kudos for 1114 and 2056 for making such spectacular robots every year. Seeing you guys and other "powerhouses" only drives us to be just as good as you guys.

[Racer26]

Not touching the ongoing argument laced with incorrect assumptions, I largely agree with Bochek's last post.

I too was on the edge of my seat hoping that bridge wouldn't balance in Q59, in order to create a more interesting afternoon.

What surprised me was how interesting the afternoon got anyway.

I also agree that the bar in Canada has been raised so high by 1114 and 2056 that the other Canadian teams ARE improving in leaps and bounds. Look at Einstein 2011, Canadians were overrepresented there as a percentage of all FIRST teams by a huge margin.

I DO think its starting to drive the Canadian 2nd tier to start travelling to faraway lands because its the only way they stand a chance to win a regional. 1114 and 2056 have made such a habit of cleaning house, its a bit nauseating.

A number of commenters in this thread will attest that friday evening, I said that I thought the gap this year between 1114/2056 and 188/610 was much larger than in the past. I was astounded by the showing on saturday that not only were 188/610/3360 capable of beating them, but 907/1404/33xx (sorry, cant remember the number) did.