Stopping a Triple Balance

[Dale]

Assuming the opposing alliance is trying to load onto the ramp on their side of the field, opposite the alley, has any team tried just parking a few feet away as was mentioned earlier? Certainly the opposing alliance may try to push you into the bridge causing you to get a technical foul. My question is have they been issuing red cards for interfering with the bridge if you just sat there after the push? It would be a question to bring up in the driver's meeting.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Dale

Assuming the opposing alliance is trying to load onto the ramp on their side of the field, opposite the alley, has any team tried just parking a few feet away as was mentioned earlier? Certainly the opposing alliance may try to push you into the bridge causing you to get a technical foul. My question is have they been issuing red cards for interfering with the bridge if you just sat there after the push? It would be a question to bring up in the driver's meeting.

Actually, being pushed into the bridge is not a foul unless you contact an opposing robot - see [G44]. I saw a robot try this in the finals of... Sacramento, I think? It helped a little bit, but the other alliance was ultimately able to double balance.

[deadman666]

I am aware but still tring to figure this site out. What happened was our robot was on the opposite side of the field close to the top of the key, but not in it. we lost connection for maybe three seconds and we were hit during that time. when we got conection back and we imedatly knew that something was wrong because we were crawling. Then we were hit again and we were done.

[dellagd]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Actually, being pushed into the bridge is not a foul unless you contact an opposing robot - see [G44]. I saw a robot try this in the finals of... Sacramento, I think? It helped a little bit, but the other alliance was ultimately able to double balance.

This is interesting

[G25] GAME

Robots may not contact or otherwise interfere with the opposing Alliance Bridge.
Violation: Technical-Foul. If the act of Balancing is interfered with, also a Red Card and the Bridge will be counted as Balanced with the maximum number of Robots possible for that Match.

[G28] GAME

Robots may not touch an opponent Robot in contact with its Key, Alley, or Bridge.
Violation: Foul; Technical-Foul for purposeful, consequential contact.

This rule applied at all times, no matter who initiates the contact, see [G44].

[G44] GAME

Generally, a rule violation by an Alliance that was directly caused by actions of the opposing Alliance will not be penalized. Rule [G28] is an exception to this rule.

[G29] GAME

An Alliance may not pin an opponent Robot that is in contact with a Court border, Fender, Barrier or Bridge for more than 5 seconds. A Robot will be considered pinned until the Robots have separated by at least 6 feet. The pinning Robot(s) must then wait for at least 3 seconds before attempting to pin the same Robot again. Pinning is transitory through other objects.
Violation: Technical-Foul

If the pinned Robot chases the pinning Robot upon retreat, the pinning Robot will not be penalized per [G44], and the pin will be considered complete.
Pinning a Robot against Basketballs that are being pushed against the Court border is an example of pinning being considered transitory.

Now, this is tricky. G44 only states that [G28] is an exception to the rule, which only involves touching the robots in contact with the bridge, not the bridge itself. [G44] does not state that [G25] an exception. That means that [G44] still applies to [G25], in that if an opposing robot causes you to touch the bridge and no robots on it, you are fine. Also, this is further clarified in the bottom part of [G29]. If a opposing robot causes you to be 'pinned' on the bridge as well, you still wont be penalized for touching bridge.

Also, to address the question of "My question is have they been issuing red cards for interfering with the bridge if you just sat there after the push?", That is addressed in [G29]. You must chase when the robot ceases to 'pin' you, so you cannot just sit there, you must actively try to move away from your contact with the bridge. Otherwise, by the rules, you will be penalized.

Now, there is another rule we have to look at

[G45] GAME

Strategies exploiting Rule [G44] are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed.
Violation: Technical-Foul and Red Card

Are we really exploiting the rule? All we are doing is trying to play defense on a robot, not letting him get to the bridge. If we get pushed into the bridge, it wasnt our fault. All we were trying to do was keep them from getting to the bridge, keeping wary to not touch it by our own power.

So...Is that exploiting? I dont really know what to think!

[PaW]

Dale --
At Waterford District, Semifinals Match 1, defense was attempted, but ultimately was not successful. A blue alliance robot was parked near the red bridge to prevent the red alliance triple balance. However, all 3 red alliance robots crossed the bump and rode onto their alliance bridge from the blue side.

469 had to gingerly cross the blue key area, making sure not to contact the robot there. Once past, they were able to tip their bridge and begin the climb.

Granted, with 67's Utili-arm, the time to complete a triple balance is greatly reduced.

[RyanCahoon]

Originally Posted by Dale

Teams with a long orientation robot, like ours, would seem to be at a disadvantage here. [...] unless you are lucky enough to pick a couple of abnormally short robots for your alliance you aren't likely to be doing much triple balancing.?

I agree about being at a disadvantage, but as another way of approaching the overall problem, I've seen several alliances triple balance with a couple of long robots by turning the robots once on the bridge and pushing them sideways. Requires an (preferrably wide-based) alliance partner with a good pushing drivetrain, of course.

[Grim Tuesday]

If all three teams can get into the protected alley, they're home free. This does, however, require two of them to have bumper traversing ability, and one of them to have bridge traversing ability. Probably good things to look for if you're going for a bridge alliance.

[dellagd]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

If all three teams can get into the protected alley, they're home free. This does, however, require two of them to have bumper traversing ability, and one of them to have bridge traversing ability. Probably good things to look for if you're going for a bridge alliance.

Couldnt they just use the coopertition bridge to cross if they couldnt cross the barrier?

[Dale]

Couldn't they just use the coopertition bridge to cross if they couldnt cross the barrier?

Sure but then they'd have to get past the opposing alliances key which, if defended, could cause them to incur penalties. It would certainly slow them down ... it's not foolproof.

[nahstobor]

Yes, you can block teams from getting on the ramp, but if all three robots can cross the barrier, their alley is a safe zone to triple balance

[cgmv123]

I just say triple balance yourself, and hope your shooters are better than theirs.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by sst.thad

I saw 488 defend the triple balance in week 1. what they did is get inbetween the bridge and the robots trying to get up. it worked well, and actually stopped the triple that match.

Credit for that strategy belongs with 2468, however. They did the same against that alliance in the quarter-final and it was fairly effective. The missing piece, in their case, was that they didn't have a scoring machine as powerful as 118 to drive up their score while they played defense like we did.

[qzrrbz]

In the vein of "the best defense is a better offense", you defend a triple balance by putting up your own triple -- more quickly.

The downside of defending a scenario where a bot already is poised at a floored bridge end and getting shoved into him for a red card is pretty much a "one move win" for the shoving alliance. It can't be worth it.

[MrBasse]

When I posted earlier I realized that I didn't say that we implemented parking in front of the bridge while playing defense. We have 4 wheels planted at all times, so moving us sideways is nearly impossible. We parked about 4 feet from the bridge and made it so the other team would have to come in and turn or come from the other side of the field through their alley. The problem with our strategy is that it only worked once. As soon as the opposing alliance saw the plan, they just crossed the bump and went in through their alley. But that first time, it sure did slow them down.

[bhsrobotics1671]

You could park in front of the bridge then have your battery fall out or become disabled, therefore not give up any penalties but still block the ramp. Happened to us