Sippin' on the haterade

[RogerR]

I figured I should throw my experience out there:

When I was a student on a team, the robot was mostly mentor built.

I don't just mean the mentors did the machining or dangerous work; the mentors (and one in particular) were largely responsible for the strategy, design, and fabrication. Students were able to do basic tasks* and maintenance, but it was mostly mentors making the design decisions. Most students on the team didn't even touch the robot, and many didn't even see it until it was finished.

Despite what some in the CD community might think, we were inspired. My team-mates were always excited about robotics season; the last year I was on it, we had over 80 members. The year I graduated, 100% of the seniors went to college, where the majority studied engineering (Granted, some of us have strayed from the path and become teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc...). Several of us have gone on to start our own successful teams.

I know that we all have different measures of "success", but I think that this team was successful.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim

Martin,

...If saying "no" to coopertition helps me compete against you, I will do it.

Nothing personal.

It's not an attack on your team or how it operates.

And who knows, maybe I'll be eating my own words in a few days when teams are declining my offers of coopertition. If they do, I'll chalk it up to them playing smart. Not due to hatred against us.

I Don't have a problem with refusing to cooperate if that improves your position. I am sorry if I confused the issue by mentioning the lack of cooperation. In fact, in the last match, we were the only undefeated team, playing against a team that was seeded #1 with one loss and one more coopertition balance than we had. We decided not to try a coopertition balance because it couldn't help us, but put robots at risk (if you have ever seen catastrophic balance failure, you know what I mean).

[JaneYoung]

All -

I beg a favor, please. And I mean that literally.

This is an excellent discussion with many opportunities built into it for thoughtful insights and wise experiences. Please don't let this thread degenerate into an argument when it does not have to.

I have been thinking about the thread and was mulling over some thoughts to share later this evening. I checked it on my break and was surprised to see how quickly it has grown. Take some time to read the posts and comments made. Then take some time to respond in respectful manner.

(Many of the teams at Bayou brought the respect aspect of team interactions home to me this past weekend. By doing so, it made me want to raise my level of respect and appreciation in return. We can do the same here.)

Please.

Jane

[Nick Lawrence]

I'm going to tread very very lightly with this post. But I kind of feel it needs to be said.

After SF1-1 at GTR-East in which 907's alliance won against 1114 and 2056, the entire audience roared and cheered. Not because they hate the powerhouse teams, not at all.

Because it's cool watching the underdogs win.

-Nick

[Laaba 80]

Originally Posted by Starke

After watching this thread develop, I am surprised that no one has compared this to the game we are playing this year: Basketball. More specifically, the NCAA March Madness is going on right now. Don't most spectators (who do not have an allegiance) cheer for the underdog? Isn't it cool as a spectator to watch a big upset on a "powerhouse" team?

I sense that this translates to FIRST as well. By no means am I say that it is right, I am just saying that FIRST as a sport will also create sports spectators.

This is true. It was very clear at Duluth that the crowd wanted the other alliance to beat us in the finals. I didn't take any offense to this, I actually thought it was pretty cool and used it as motivation for our alliance. At that point, our team was undefeated, and our entire alliance had a combined record of 36-2-1.

Last year at 10k lakes, our team was on the other side. We were the underdogs against the #1 alliance led by undefeated teams 525 and 967, and the crowd loved us. They went especially crazy when we were able to win the first match. They didn't do this out of spite for the #1 alliance, everyone just likes to root for the underdog. When they ended up beating our alliance, the crowd cheered for them, and gave them the respect they deserved.

[santosh]

From speaking with Sean who joined us at 2415 and used to work with 1771, the fact is, it is pretty $@#$@#$@#$@# tough with their resources and time to be able to teach kids how to CAD. But being able to speak with them, they do play a huge role in putting their bot together, having a huge amount of input on design, and on gameplay.

I am all for teaching kids CAD. 2415 (my old team) has kids doing a vast majority of the CAD. And hey, their bad for actually reaching out to companies to get parts cut and made (and having back up plans for when the companies have to back out for paying customers).

I remember when we first started 2415, my kids were blown away at champs. They were also incredibly blown away by 1771. When all was lost, I sent kids out in pairs to talk to the big dogs.

They took every opportunity to speak with mentors of teams 118, 330, 254, and plenty of the other greats to see how they get it done. They realized that every team takes a different route and they took that off-season to learn not only how to machine better, CAD better, and think better, but also how to use, and gain resources, to help them get better.
Us mentors came back from summer to see that A) our kids were taller than we were, and B) they came back knowing a lot more and being a lot more driven to succeed.

So yeah, people's stance may be that kids should do it all on their own, but with that same thought, most people don't think that kids can pull of a sick looking (and performing) robot. But the fact is, they can - but it takes mentors to inspire.
This deviates from the discussion about the purpose of FIRST. I will admit, I like it far more when I see bots designed/built mostly by students, doing well than otherwise. The fact is that it can be done but you have to use your resources well.

p.s. I am (was) a terrible mentor and it is all about the students doing work.

[goldenglove002]

I can think back to my first memory of team 1771 back when I was sophomore. Their robot was ridiculously good. Ours had a lot of pool noodles and zip ties. Theirs won some awards, ours surely did not. Still being relatively new to FRC, I told myself that there was no way students had built that robot, it had to be the mentors doing all the work. 1771 was the one team that I never liked to see at Peachtree. I was one of the "haters".

Seeking to catch up with where their robots were, I learned how to do things. I did plenty of research on past robots and games. I sought assistance from my mentors. And over time, I learned that my original thoughts were completely wrong, students could build some awesome machines. I did it, other students on my team did it, so I'm sure that 1771's students were also doing it.

I've held conversations with plenty of 1771 team members, and there are some very nice, very smart students over there. During this years Peachtree, I spoke with some of 1311's current students over the phone telling them over and over that they needed to pick 1771 if they did indeed end up with the top seed. I applaud what they are able to do as an inspiration to other teams that don't have award winning robots yet.

There are A LOT of really young teams in Georgia. We need to work to show them how they can become an elite team, just like 1771. With the right mentoring from veteran teams, those who are currently "haters" will be converted the same way that I was.

[ebarker]

Excellent post Alex !!

edit: so how did the robot rank in Raleigh in 2010 ? haha

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence

I'm going to tread very very lightly with this post. But I kind of feel it needs to be said.

After SF1-1 at GTR-East in which 907's alliance won against 1114 and 2056, the entire audience roared and cheered. Not because they hate the powerhouse teams, not at all.

Because it's cool watching the underdogs win.

-Nick

What Nick says is true, and it also goes further. There are 21 teams in the eliminations on alliances other than the 1114/2056 alliance. I would be willing to bet that all of those 21 teams would rather not have to face 1114/2056 to win the championship. Thus, if 1114/2056 were to lose in the quarter finals, you can bet there is going to be a gigantic roar from the crowd simply from those 21 teams that would be thanking their lucky stars that they don't have to get through the favorite to win.

[martin417]

Reading over this thread, I realized that I may have given the wrong impression of the Peachtree Regional. While we did receive some bad attitude, we ALL had a blast, and I know many people, both young and old were inspired. I loved it when some of the freshmen parents came up to me and said that they had no idea how cool and how much fun this was. I know that many left with a new appreciation for engineering and science in general, and FIRST robotics in particular. Most of the people with whom I spoke were very supportive, and I enjoyed every conversation I had (I talked with a lot of people). In my opinion, the best compliment our team received was not on the quality of our robot, it had nothing to do with how well our drivers drove. It was posted here on Chief delphi by Sunny Gupta, a mentor from 1261 (1261 is from Peachtree Ridge high school, in the same small town as North Gwinnett). Here is an excerpt from that post:

@ 1771 - Probably one of the most professional teams I've ever met. Usually teams pass around the blame but you'll never hear a bad word from 1771. Honestly, they ran an excellent event and were SOL when it came down to crunch time. Hopefully you guys can get enough funds to get to N.C and join 2415 and hopefully us at worlds.

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by Joe G.

You bring up an interesting question. Are these the most valuable skills that students can generate through the FIRST program? Answer as you will, but I'd answer with a resounding "no."

I would much rather have my students designing parts, than building parts based on someone else's drawings. I'd rather have my parts manufactured at an outside facility, precision machined from a student's drawing, so that the students can see EXACTLY what they designed come to life. I'd rather have my students learn to prototype, design, think, and iterate. I'd rather have my students learn how to think like a software engineer, than how to punch Java code into a computer. It doesn't matter who builds the robot. It doesn't matter who drafts the robot. It matters that the students learn what it means to engineer a robot.

For the longest time, our team was made up of about 50% kids that wanted to become mechanics, and work in a garage. Is there anything wrong with this? Not at all. Our engineering kids would work with these kids through prototyping and the final design. This method stuck, and I can't imagine doing it any other way. Not a single part was ever sent to a sponsor to cut.

Did the robot always work right? Nope. Did it look professional? Never. Did we have a blast doing it? YES. Fun=inspiration.

Engineering kids learned hands-on tool working/cutting/everything from our machinist kids, and our machinists learned how to design from the engineering kids. I think this is more valuable then designing a part, and having it sent out to get made. Of course, we have mentors, but their role wasn't that huge. They were more of a "I need to sand this tiny round piece, how should I do it?" kind of mentor. Or if something was to dangerous for a student to do for whatever reason, the mentor would do it.

Like someone else said before, its a jealousy factor. I look at other bots at the regional, and I see nice & shiny paint jobs, CNC'd bots, and professional-looking machines. Of course I wish mine looked/played like that. But honestly, I wouldn't have our build season be any other way. I like the way we do things and wouldn't change it for anything. It got me into engineering, and I'm not planning on switching majors anytime soon. Each team has their own way of doing things, some produce more successful robots then others, but its how they have fun and how their students get inspired.

2c - no haterade

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by martin417

we ALL had a blast

I want to reinforce Martin's comment.

I have been at the Peachtree 7 times, several out of town regionals, and 6 Championships.

This year that the Peachtree was one of the best events I've been to. Absolutely make no mistake about it. It is a great regional. And I hope every team in the world will consider coming to this event.

These little nit-picking small comments we are talking about, while irritating, while they happen everywhere, we are all here to discuss this, put it behind us, and figure out how to improve ourselves and our fellow teams out there.

It is important to occasionally remind ourselves what we are trying to do and how we are trying to get it done and ChiefDelphi is a good forum for doing that. And very nicely this thread is still in good shape.

"hooah!"

[familyguyfreak]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Even if a hypothetical team somewhere "buys that robot", "pays someone to build that for them", "uses how many mentors to build that robot" and "has unlimited funds to build with", and I say this with absolute seriousness,

WHO CARES?!??!!

Is the team celebrating Science and Technology?
Is the team creating Inspiration?
Is the team Recognizable?

If any or all of these answers is even a little bit "yes", then Mission Accomplished.

It's a learning process for teams and individuals to understand this. It took me about 4 years for it to sink through. I don't believe any team is 100% student built or 100% mentor built (for those that claim to be completely SB, who do you think created the KOP? It wasn't 15 year old kids!)

If I were in your shoes, I'd take those interactions - while quite unfortunate - as a compliment. Perhaps you could create a flyer outlining the different abilities of your robot, and highlight the team member who spearheaded each component. Invite the naysayers to your shop. Point out to them that students are in the pit working on the robot, not adults. Haters gonna hate; kill 'em with kindness.

Congrats on the ICA.

I agree 100% with this post. Our team was ran similar to how the OP's team was this year. Our reason behind that was because our students had no idea what FIRST was and our goal was to get them into it and experience it. We didn't go expecting to win, we just to show the kids to get them hooked so the team could grow next year. Many teams run their teams differently. As long as the message of FIRST is getting through to the kids, I say keep doing what you're doing.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by ebarker

I want to reinforce Martin's comment.

I have been at the Peachtree 7 times, several out of town regionals, and 6 Championships.

This year that the Peachtree was one of the best events I've been to. Absolutely make no mistake about it. It is a great regional. And I hope every team in the world will consider coming to this event.

These little nit-picking small comments we are talking about, while irritating, while they happen everywhere, we are all here to discuss this, put it behind us, and figure out how to improve ourselves and our fellow teams out there.

It is important to occasionally remind ourselves what we are trying to do and how we are trying to get it done and ChiefDelphi is a good forum for doing that. And very nicely this thread is still in good shape.

"hooah!"

All true, and I forgot to mention one of the coolest things that happened was that I got to sign Woodie Flowers' shirt, and he signed mine. How cool is that? Not to mention a visit by the Harlem Globetrotters.

[Andy Baker]

Martin,

This is an excellent thread. Thank you for starting it. This is an ongoing issue that we, as a community, need to continue to be diligent in addressing. I believe that we must look for opportunities to tactfully and graciously address this situation, much like Wayne did with judges at the Boilermaker Regional (let me show you how students are involved!).

I often get customers calling in to AndyMark, asking about various things. Many of the customers who call the most often are new mentors and they sometimes vent about these "professionally built robots". Although they are not asking for my opinion, I eagerly and tactfully take the opportunity to voice my opinion about this and describe the "I" in FIRST. Almost all of the time, I am able to get them to see this new (to them) side of FIRST, citing that FIRST is not a science fair project and that involving professional engineers, skilled tradesmen and business leaders is a good thing.

What we forget is that there are new FIRSTers every year. Not only are 20-25% of all of the teams new to FIRST, but there are personnel turnover on another 20-25% of the veteran teams. This adds up to approximately 40-50% of teams being led by new team mentors. Due to this, we must remain consistent and diligent in repeating this opinion of keeping the "I" in FIRST and seeking out occasions where we can tactfully take the time to explain that it is perfectly OK for adults to be involved with this wonderful program.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker