Courtesy during awards.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Haha, I didn't say you had to agree with what I thought about certain awards, no need to be sorry for that. I simply appreciate it when large teams send up a few students to receive something like website and animation awards because those were, in fact, only worked on by certain students/mentors.

Interesting that you would pick animation as an award you think only a few work on.

For those of you who don't know I started out doing animation and have been a website mentor for several years now. I can absolutely say that the notion that these subteams don't work hand in hand with the entire team is absolutely wrong. The team must support them in their passions, they must provide content for the website, ideas for the animation, and feedback on both. There is nothing more discouraging than hearing someone tell you that what you are doing doesn't matter or even not backing you up on what you're interested in.

By your logic I shouldn't go up with my team if they win an award for a mechanical system or a cool construction technique because I had nothing to do with it. I think even you would think this is stupid.

If you can't find the extra time to wait for the WHOLE team to celebrate their team's accomplishment I suggest you find a new hobby. I believe in celebrating greatness in all forms, even if it involves celebrating people who supported their team mates. Actually, strike that, I think that people who support their team mates should be celebrated especially hard.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Interesting that you would pick animation as an award you think only a few work on.

For those of you who don't know I started out doing animation and have been a website mentor for several years now. I can absolutely say that the notion that these subteams don't work hand in hand with the entire team is absolutely wrong. The team must support them in their passions, they must provide content for the website, ideas for the animation, and feedback on both. There is nothing more discouraging than hearing someone tell you that what you are doing doesn't matter or even not backing you up on what you're interested in.

By your logic I shouldn't go up with my team if they win an award for a mechanical system or a cool construction technique because I had nothing to do with it. I think even you would think this is stupid.

If you can't find the extra time to wait for the WHOLE team to celebrate their team's accomplishment I suggest you find a new hobby. I believe in celebrating greatness in all forms, even if it involves celebrating people who supported their team mates. Actually, strike that, I think that people who support their team mates should be celebrated especially hard.

If that is how your team operates, then by all means send them all up if you truly believe everyone lends a hand in the work. I simply disagree.
And yes I brought up website and animation specifically because I do think that only a few work on these things and deserve to be recognized in front of their peers. If you want to continue to argue about opinion, PM me.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

And yes I brought up website and animation specifically because I do think that only a few work on these things and deserve to be recognized in front of their peers. If you want to continue to argue about opinion, PM me.

I'd prefer to talk about facts -- such as the fact that a lot of good team web sites have content contributed by many team members. It's not just the web "coders" who are responsible for the award-winning sites.

[gyroscopeRaptor]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I'd prefer to talk about facts -- such as the fact that a lot of good team web sites have content contributed by many team members. It's not just the web "coders" who are responsible for the award-winning sites.

Say a website has a photo gallery. All students are in the photos there. Each photo is then contributing to the content of the website which I believe is one of the evaluative criteria. Each person has contributed and should walk on stage.

[Gray Adams]

Originally Posted by gyroscopeRaptor

Say a website has a photo gallery. All students are in the photos there. Each photo is then contributing to the content of the website which I believe is one of the evaluative criteria. Each person has contributed and should walk on stage.

If you're trying to say that you believe all members should walk on the stage based on a technicality, you should probably rethink your position. I'm not saying that not every member should go up, but that's a really weak reason for taking this position.

[Big Ideas]

As for FAMILY members walking, I say yes. Here is my reasoning:

As a volunteer for various activities for many years I have observed that:

the volunteers give their expertise but the FAMILY gives their TIME.

If a Mentors child (Robot Orphan) feels invested in the team enough to celebrate with the team, they should.

This holds true for post season parties also. Teams should celebrate and thank the families also.

[robochick1319]

When I played sports as a child, my father would always say, "You play as a team, you win as a team, you lose as a team."

Therefore, I do not think there is anything wrong with letting entire teams go up (even parents). Whoever wants to go up to accept the award should go and teams can use their best judgment. And if a team is oblivious to a faux pas that others find annoying, other teams in the audience should be GRACIOUS (that is what the term means, after all).

Should the entire team go up for website? Of course! The entire team would go up if they won the regional or if they won an imagery award. It is a motto for my team: We win and lose as a team. No matter what, we are all together.

Why is this even a big issue anyway? Aren't there more pressing issues for FIRST fans to address? Like blatant safety violations, overcrowding of venues and inconsistencies between regionals?

[rcmolloy]

Paraphrasing a student, "Regardless of how many students actually worked on something or put effort into that part of the team, I do believe that each student should be able to walk and receive a high five because that will ultimately build the most confidence and let the student embrace the winning aspect much more."

[ttldomination]

Frankly, I don't quite care what people do during the award ceremonies as long as they do not hint a level of disrespect.

For example, during the Friday award ceremonies a couple of members and I sat in the pits and talked about the day, and the day to come. We didn't feel like standing in the crowd, and so instead of hanging around in the stands, we returned to the pits.

Another example is that on Saturday, during the closing awards, we sat in the stands and politely clapped for all of the awards. The only award I actually stood up for was the Chairman's Award, and that too wasn't because of the award, but because of the caliber with which 1311 had presented themselves.

Honestly, this is slightly ridiculous. I understand drawing a line on not disrespecting teams, more specifically, booing teams or not clapping for teams, etc. But to dictate how I choose to show my support and/or appreciation for a team seems...incorrect.

- Sunny G.

[popnbrown]

Well, Sunny, the original point was that we, as mentors (and I assume you are), are just that mentors. We're not only trying to promote STEM and Robots here at FIRST but we're promoting something bigger than that, which is GP and Coopertition.

While there's absolutely nothing we can to dictate how you choose to show your support, I think the point that should be driven home, is that unless you seriously seriously have an objection to who got the award and you really really need to consider your objection, it's your duty as a mentor to teach your students gracious professionalism. After all you're essentially a role model to them, whether you think it or not, they do look up to you.

Even if you have an objection, someone for some reason thought they were deserving and it's important to acknowledge the teams that received the award, because they obviously were deserving.

So if clapping politely is really your most gracious form of recognizing the team's accomplishments, then we (if you don't mind me saying) encourage you to do so. Just make sure those you are mentoring join you, and encourage them to do so.

[popnbrown]

Wanted to make this two posts. Since they're two different points:

Akash:
I'm a little surprised at this as well. While I see where you are coming from, using the same logic. You could say that some of these students may not participate in building the robot or driving it, so should they go up for the finalist and other awards?

Going by the same point as the original points, we're here not ONLY to be proud of our team and give respect and awards where they DESERVE to go. But we're here to show that sense of gracious professionalism. No matter how many kids you have, you are a team. Like that quote, you win and you lose as a team.

Although, I think as mentors, we all recognize which students are actually deserving and it's important for US to make sure those students are recognized within the team, but when you're outside, it's important to convey the message that you are a team.

It kind of goes back to gracious professionalism, but this time within your team. Not only are we here working as different teams for a better society, but we're working as individuals within a team to create a better community in turn creating a better society.

Also, I believe that the student recognition was an important thing, and hence, why the Dean's List was established, other than that and the WFFA. I believe all other awards are completely team awards.


-That was a lot of stuff, I can spew for days, but you get my point.

[rcmolloy]

Originally Posted by popnbrown

Although, I think as mentors, we all recognize which students are actually deserving and it's important for US to make sure those students are recognized within the team.

I do believe that all students should be recognized if it were to be within the team or outside of the team. All members should be important regardless of their contribution. It really doesn't matter if a student did not do as much work as the next or none at all. They are there supporting the team and want success just as much as the rest even if they only participated in a small part or none of it at all.

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by rcmolloy

I do believe that all students should be recognized if it were to be within the team or outside of the team. All members should be important regardless of their contribution. It really doesn't matter if a student did not do as much work as the next or none at all. They are there supporting the team and want success just as much as the rest even if they only participated in a small part or none of it at all.

I whole heartedly agree. I mainly meant that as a point towards Akash's few points. That you should show recognition privately to the student of what their TRUE accomplishments are done.

If there's a student that hasn't done much but maybe has been there, listened and done things that they were asked to do. They deserve recognition for being a team member and doing the appropriate things.

I will say that there are some students that clearly deserve more recognition in certain aspects (i.e website, animation) than others for that aspect. I do not believe just showing up and "being" there qualifies you to be a member of the team, and I mean that for students ONLY.

Like Al and Andrew talked about, there are certain expectations that teams have of their members (not to mention their mentors), and if those aren't met they cannot travel. Travelling and going to competition in the team (where the team covers most of your expenses) is a privilege, and without working for that privilege then you will not be able to recieve it.

Also back to Akash, what I meant (stupid phrasing on my part) is not that YOU would say it, but someone else COULD say it, and we both agree that it's not right. Likewise, I would apply that to the website and animation. That the award is given to the TEAM not those two students, hence its a TEAM award, and within the TEAM not only is it the responsibility of mentors to recognize the student(s) that were a big part of that award but also for the team to recognize its own members. You can even extend this to Chairman's or the Robot Awards, that the Chairman's presenters/essay writers are the actual people that PHYSICALLY did the work for that award, and the drive team and "building" teaams are the one that got the robot to win BUT it's a TEAM award, and we should within the team recognize these people and their PHYSICAL contribution to the award.

To further clarify in like a sentence or two. Publicly its a TEAM award, privately it is still a TEAM award. But Privately ONLY privately it is (I believe) a duty of mentors to make sure that the students that put in a lot of work (and this could be all 30 students on the team, or in our team's case all 20 students that actually worked on the bot) get recognition for the work that they did. And furthermore, all students that did work should be recognized, and encouraged, IF they did contribute to the team IN ANY WAY.

(Thanks Akash!!!!)

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by popnbrown

Akash:
I'm a little surprised at this as well. While I see where you are coming from, using the same logic. You could say that some of these students may not participate in building the robot or driving it, so should they go up for the finalist and other awards?

No, actually, I would not say this. And I will repeat again that I was saying this for two specific awards- website and animation. I have also already said that if your team operates differently, then go for it-send up whoever you like. How you are interpreting what I wrote is not what I am saying about other awards. You also know the 80 person team I come from so I'm also not making a biased opinion on the matter.

(PS good luck in Midwest this weekend Sravan <3)

[Taylor]

We Midwesterners are not complicated folk. Slop a few hogs, shuck some corn, build a robot or two - it's a simple life. But we do understand work ethic. And if somebody works harder than us and receives an award for it, you can bet yer britches we'll stand and applaud them because, dadgummit, they deserve it. And if they want to bring up the entire town, well, they earned it and it's their prerogative.

It's not Gracious Professionalism, it's not Hoosier Hospitality, it's just the right thing to do.