2012 New York City Regional

[Dad1279]

I noticed the extension cord/2HP Ingersall -Rand compressor in use during the quarterfinals. I tried to point out the legality to the mentor on the field, but was dismissed. I then brought the situation to the attention of the Lead Robot Inspector, who tried to terminate it's use. I believe he was the first to bring it to the attention of the FTA and Head Referee, which also did not terminate the use of the compressor. It's use continued through the semi & quarterfinals.

This situation was questioned by the three student captains after a semifinal match (as per [T14]), and while the officials never returned a ruling to the students, the matches continued.

I have been in email contact with officials at FIRST, and received this reply: Per [G01], while a robot must be in compliance with all robot rules before being placed on the Court, there are no retroactive penalties assigned to matches already played if a robot is later found not to be in compliance with the rules.

While obviously not satisfied with that ruling, I would like to commend the students on teams 3017, 1796, and my team, 1279, for how well they handled the situation.

@ Madison - I'm sorry to see you deleted the posts. I was going to remain quiet on this subject, but can confirm the above posts, as simply as you as a moderator can confirm that I am not GraciousPro

@GraciousPro: Thank you for mustering enough bravery to say something about one of the two injustices at the NYC regional even if it was from a new ID.

@jblay: Silly rules? Really? What's the silly rule to break next, bag & tag?

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Dad1279

@ Madison - I'm sorry to see you deleted the posts. I was going to remain quiet on this subject, but can confirm the above posts, as simply as you as a moderator can confirm that I am not GraciousPro

@GraciousPro: Thank you for mustering enough bravery to say something about one of the two injustices at the NYC regional even if it was from a new ID.

My tolerance for those who won't stand behind their accusations with the full force of their reputation is stretched very thin. I'm tired of people going after the good teams and people we have in FIRST while hiding behind an anonymous message board account.

I wasn't in NYC, so I can't speak to what happened there, but I appreciate that you are willing to talk about the subject without obscuring your identity.

I've asked other moderators to review my action and to research whether the GraciousPro account is in violation of forum rules -- the latter is not something I have the ability to do. They will act as they see fit.

[jblay]

To be clear I am taking issue with the off-board compressor requiring you not to have an on-board compressor and the off-board compressor having to be powered by the robot battery. If the compressor are the same specs why does it matter? Maybe I have a misunderstanding of the rule or the scenario.

[Marc P.]

Originally Posted by jblay

To be clear I am taking issue with the off-board compressor requiring you not to have an on-board compressor and the off-board compressor having to be powered by the robot battery. If the compressor are the same specs why does it matter? Maybe I have a misunderstanding of the rule or the scenario.

As I understand the rule in question, the idea isn't that the specs between an on or off-board compressor are the same, but that the off-board compressor is governed by the control system. Pressurizing via the control system gives the cRio the ability to shut off the compressor once the electronic pressure switch indicates appropriate pressure has been reached.

Pressurizing manually with a non-controlled compressor opens the possibility of exceeding the legal storage pressure (even if only by a slight amount before the emergency relief valve pops).

[Dad1279]

Originally Posted by jblay

To be clear I am taking issue with the off-board compressor requiring you not to have an on-board compressor and the off-board compressor having to be powered by the robot battery. If the compressor are the same specs why does it matter? Maybe I have a misunderstanding of the rule or the scenario.

Well, now all of the GP posts are gone, with it some of the facts. The compressor was a 120v commercial model, like the type used for nail & impact guns, certainly more powerful by orders of magnitude than the one in the KOP. I believe it was an Ingersol-Rand. No regulator, over-pressure safety, etc. I do not know if there was an additional compressor on board the robot.

Still a silly rule?

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by jblay

To be clear I am taking issue with the off-board compressor requiring you not to have an on-board compressor and the off-board compressor having to be powered by the robot battery. If the compressor are the same specs why does it matter? Maybe I have a misunderstanding of the rule or the scenario.

The advantage this provides is that, if you have a Rookie compressor, you can burn it up running all match. Using another offboard one can alleviate this, if you pre-charge it from that one, so you aren't putting any more strain on it. Then it becomes a design choice: A 5 lb compressor that has a better duty cycle, or a 2.5 lb one that doesn't.

[AlexJamesCross]

Originally Posted by jblay

To be clear I am taking issue with the off-board compressor requiring you not to have an on-board compressor and the off-board compressor having to be powered by the robot battery. If the compressor are the same specs why does it matter? Maybe I have a misunderstanding of the rule or the scenario.

I believe you are misunderstanding the situation their off board compressor had to be plugged into a wall outlet and did not need the same specs as the first approved compressor.

[harryji369]

As the Captain of team 369 we do know that things where done incorrectly during the finals matches but it does not matter. I find no reason for this excessive arguing over this rule it is already done and the competition is already over but I believe all of our alliance members enjoyed the matches and it wouldn't of been the same if the alliances where not whole.

[jblay]

Ah it seems that I have indeed misunderstood the situation. I believe this is a result of not being able to read the deleted posts. I retract my statement entirely.

[NickTosta]

Without being able to view the deleted posts I'm not entirely sure what else is known or exactly what it is we are arguing about, but given that I was on the field the entire time I did see quite a few things.


1. The air compressor

At some point, possibly during the quarterfinals, I was standing behind one of the driver stations (I believe it was the alliance station below the scoreboard, I was waiting with our control board for the next match) when I saw a mentor or maybe a student from 522 (the RoboWizards) carrying an enormous air compressor around the field, presumably coming from the pits. At the time I knew that having an off-board air compressor was legal, so I didn't think much of it. I just kind of laughed to myself thinking "wow, they must have to keep A TON of air on-board to power that piston!"

At some point during the Semis I was standing right next to their robot, so I was able to get a good look at it. Most of the inside of their robot is dominated by an enormous air tank - this thing was like as wide as their robot and probably like 6 or 7 inches in diameter. Just an enormous black air tank. I remember asking them if that was really an air tank, and they said they needed that much air to power that huge piston on the front of their robot. I just remember shrugging it off thinking "wow, that's pretty neat, and that explains why they needed the huge air compressor."

So, basically, I can confirm that they did bring in some enormous 120v air compressor, but I am totally uncertain as to the extent that it was used.


2. The questionable balances

Once again, given that I was on the field the entire time I had an excellent view of everything that transpired.

The first balance in the quarterfinals the two long robots were on the bridge perfectly, but 522 was at that strange angle and appeared to be leaning on the side railing of the field. I was standing by the corner of the field near the robot entrance to the floor there, so I had a perfect view both of the balanced bridge, 522 leaning on the railing, and the refs inspecting the balance.

My opinion was that the bridge shouldn't have counted as balanced, as 522's bumper was up against the railing. However, I saw the refs touching 522s bumper and the railing and I think they may have thought that 522's robot wasn't actually being supported by the railing, merely that their robot had just come to rest near it. That is certainly a possibility and something I can't confirm or deny based only on that I saw it from a distance, but again, from my perspective on the floor there it looked like 522 was on the railing and the balance shouldn't have counted.

The other balance, where 522 fell off the bridge and 125 was on the railing, I don't think there is much confusion about that one. However, I can again confirm that I saw 125's bumper on top of the railing, and I would have been absolutely shocked if they counted that one.


3. GraciousPro posting from an anonymous account

Guys, sometimes (read: almost always) this community is unnecessarily hostile to an individual that wishes to express an unpopular opinion, or wants to raise a possibly valid point against a team that is generally held in high esteem. Now, because the posts have been deleted, I am unsure as to whether or not GraciousPro expressed his opinions in an unnecessarily angry or derogatory fashion. Obviously, if he did then I can understand the resistance against this anonymous account, and I would agree that the posts should be deleted depending on the severity. However, if he was merely bringing up the issue of the possibly illegal events that transpired at New York, and was doing so in a fair and level way, I don't see why it should matter that he chose to do so from an alternate account.

Again, because of the sometimes hostile response to any member "rocking the boat" so to speak, I can totally understand why he would choose to post from an alternate account. I don't think that posting from an anonymous account is a reason to discount what he is saying, though. In fact, I would argue that someone posting anonymously would be much, much more honest and open than someone posting with their real name and team name.

_______________________________________


Also, does anyone know what happened with that whole "technical timeout" called by the lead robot inspector? I am totally in the dark about what happened there.

[Ninja_Bait]

Originally Posted by AlexJamesCross

I have to disagree sir. This thread just stated that the rules may have been bent. There was report that 522 and their alliance were on the side rail as well but that was by someone in the crowd and i didn't see it for my self. Weather it is true or not is now behind us and i congratulate 522,125, and 1635 for their amazing win and their brilliant triple balance. If the rules were broken then I hope 522, us 369, 694 or any team that broke said rule would come forward in the views of gracious professionalism after all that is the whole view of first after all. So please don't insult any teams or posts on ChiefDelphi cause it is a forum and is ment to have people state their views.

My goal was to remind people that the typical result of an inflammatory post like GP's is poo-flinging and ALL CAPS POSTS. I'm glad to see that the situation was quelled by both Madison's moderating and everyone's acceptance of the situation as already past.

[coldfusion1279]

Originally Posted by NickTosta

3. GraciousPro posting from an anonymous account

Guys, sometimes (read: almost always) this community is unnecessarily hostile to an individual that wishes to express an unpopular opinion, or wants to raise a possibly valid point against a team that is generally held in high esteem. Now, because the posts have been deleted, I am unsure as to whether or not GraciousPro expressed his opinions in an unnecessarily angry or derogatory fashion. Obviously, if he did then I can understand the resistance against this anonymous account, and I would agree that the posts should be deleted depending on the severity. However, if he was merely bringing up the issue of the possibly illegal events that transpired at New York, and was doing so in a fair and level way, I don't see why it should matter that he chose to do so from an alternate account.

Again, because of the sometimes hostile response to any member "rocking the boat" so to speak, I can totally understand why he would choose to post from an alternate account. I don't think that posting from an anonymous account is a reason to discount what he is saying, though. In fact, I would argue that someone posting anonymously would be much, much more honest and open than someone posting with their real name and team name.

_______________________________________


Also, does anyone know what happened with that whole "technical timeout" called by the lead robot inspector? I am totally in the dark about what happened there.

I have been following this thread since Sunday to see if these issues were brought up. I saw every one of GraciousPro's posts, and they were not hostile. Unfortunately, they made team 522 look bad, but the facts are the facts. This thread isn't an argument at all, it's a log of the unfortunate events from the regional, which nobody is arguing with. In fact, the only controversy here is caused by the deleted posts which now nobody can read. [FYI: most of the information provided by GraciousPro has now been reiterated by others in this thread, so you aren't missing anything. The reason they were deleted, as far as I can tell, is because the username is anonymous].

I was also on the field during the quarterfinal match with the questionable balance. I too saw the bumper leaning on the rail standing at the corner of the field in the RED 3 queue. Though, I was also excited that a triple balance happened. The atmosphere was electric, but IMHO, the call was incorrect and I think the atmosphere of the arena had something to do with it.

The technical time out was called so that the field admins could call FIRST to confer with them about the rules when our students brought up the question in an appropriate, polite manner.

The ungracious part was how our students were treated afterwards. They were ignored; their question never was answered, and matches resumed.

I would like to make it abundantly clear: The teams involved in the elimination matches aren't upset because we lost. The problem stems from the example that the volunteers set for our kids. It only takes one lack-luster attempt at conflict resolution like this one to poison the message that FIRST aims to send and curtail our students motivation before our next competition. The real tragedy in this whole debacle was that nobody attempted to explain the situation to our students, or even give an honest apology that the rules were not enforced as strictly as they should have been. The response we received from FIRST is quoted above in DAD1279's post.

[Madison]

To be clear, GraciousPro removed their remaining posts on their own. Given that their intention seems to be to remove everything they posted, the two posts that I hid will remain hidden.

[RoboTigers1796]

In the spirit of gracious professionalism and everything FIRST is supposed to stand for the number #3 alliance thought it was the right thing to do by bringing said situation to the attention of Head Referee,(who said he couldn’t do anything about it and we needed to find the Lead Robot Inspector on our own) Safety Advisor, and then Lead Robot Inspector. We feel it was unfair for 522, The Robowizards, to have an advantage over all the other robots in the building.
We became aware of the large compressor, who’s picture is attached below, when a member of our team accidently tripped over the extension cord running to the field while walking around the outskirts taking photos of the competition. Upon following the cords, we discovered it actually ran to the field directly connected to, and filling, 522’s robot. The compressor was set up just outside of the field divider curtain with power cords running along the floor plugged into a vacated Google Exhibitor Booth a few feet away from the arena.

Upon tripping, and bringing attention to the lines, a mentor from Team 1279 that was in the vicinity commented on the legality of the compressor to a 522 member on the field. He was greeted with harsh remarks including multiple expletives. The mentor then decided to digress from the escalation.
At that moment, we grabbed our rulebook, and brought the information to the attention of our drive coach as well as the alliance captain. What followed was a series of moral letdowns for the NYC regional, and FIRST as a whole. The Head Referee informed the alliance captain he couldn’t do anything about it, and we needed to find the Lead Robot Inspector on our own.

The lead Robot Inspector graciously rushed to the field with us to deal with the situation appropriately, but at that time the compressor was already removed from the side of the field. It is a shame that this same photographic evidence here, along with all the eyewitness accounts of the event, and a technical timeout to contact FIRST, resulted in no consequences, and the situation was almost brushed under the rug as matches carried on unaffected.
We also believe the students from the alliance handled the situation the best they could, but their professionalism went unanswered by those in a position of authority.

Considering we have to be so political on this site without the risk of being censored and frowned upon, this is Team 1796’s official account of the unfortunate series of events that unfolded at the NYC regional, written by the members directly involved.
Below is the picture of the compressor, presented to field officials, that was used to refill the tank on 522’s robot. There are more pictures but I feel only one is necessary. Above all else, the sheer size and power of this thing filling an FRC robot should have been a huge safety concern to everyone at the competition, and not brushed off as a silly rule.

It is a shame; this was the first regional for 25 of our 32 members on the team. And after speaking so highly of the respect, gracious professionalism, and honesty of the FIRST Robotics Competition, we were embarrassed to have to explain this situation as well as the lack of a resolution to all of our students.
Since FIRST’s stance on this is what’s done is done, Team 1796 will also move on; we can simply only hope similar situations will be handled more appropriately in the future. We are looking forward to SBPLI and seeing new friends, like 1279, there. With the hopes that you did not know what was happening on your alliance, huge congrats to 1635 and 125 for their win, the matches got pretty close and were very competitive. Best of luck in St. Louis.

[Will_C640]

Wow all this happened at NYC? so much for GP , how about we all start breaking the rules now!

-1796, 1279 great way of shining light on this injustice, hopefully in other regional or years to come FIRST puts things in order so something like this does not happen again!

[jblay]---> Really silly rules?