Elitist Teams

[470-RBTX]

A lot of people have been discussing lately the negative remarks that are said about really good teams just because they get blue banners. But I want to explore a different side of the argument.

My team has never been a first super power, and highly doubt we will be soon. We put gracious professionalism at our forefront, instead of looking for ways to win matches, we look for ways to help rookies. So when I recently competed with a team that had an elitist "we're better than you" attitude it left a bad taste in my mouth.

This team is completely unapproachable in their pits, I tried to talk strategy with them, and they denied me even though they had anything better to do.

Then once we got to the cue, they showed up and I tried to to talk to them again, instead of a discussion, they told us what we were going to do the whole match as if it wasn't disputable, as if we didn't have a say. I was mad, but I figured we'll get the win and the qualification points so it's no biggie.

Then once the match starts, the team has a perfect autonomous, and we're against 3 robots that really needed some help mechanically so the score was 36-0 ish in our alliances favor. We drive to our alliance bridge to prep it for balancing like this team told us to, but they apparently wants the balls on that bridge and we're in the way. instead of driving around us or asking us to move, their driver rams into us and shouts at the top of his lungs, "470 get out of the way!" as if them getting those two balls were going to win or lose the match.

That's when I was ready to drop the controls and tell them what I really thought, but Gracious Professionalism prevailed.

Scenarios like this have happened with many other big name teams in our area at competitions before, and I don't want this to smear the pristine FIM image, but does anyone else have these problems?

Is it possible that people make the negative remarks because some teams treat others negatively?

Would this team have acted the same way if Mr. Kamen was in the discussion and behind the driver station with them?

[moogboy]

Unfortunately I have had similar experiences. With this year's game, there is nothing more important than having everyone on the same page and communicating effectively. With those elitist teams, what I noticed being on the field with them was that the heart of the problem was not the students, but the adults around them. From what little I was able to interact with those teams' students, they were very nice and gracious people, but their mentors/coaches were less than stellar.

[rcmolloy]

Originally Posted by 470-RBTX

My team has never been a first super power, and highly doubt we will be soon.

I'm fairly sure that your team can gather up the students, mentors, and resources and make yourself a superpower in a few short years. When it comes down to it, you really need to strive for excellence and always keep making modifications to your robot. That does come from the drive and excellence within the team though so inspiration and motivation will have to be great.

Originally Posted by 470-RBTX

Then once we got to the cue, they showed up and I tried to to talk to them again, instead of a discussion, they told us what we were going to do the whole match as if it wasn't disputable, as if we didn't have a say. I was mad, but I figured we'll get the win and the qualification points so it's no biggie.

I'm not trying to be rude or negative but Elite teams are fairly certain what needs to happen on the field. Nothing against 470, I'm sure that you guys had great plans for pre-match strategy and I feel bad that the team didn't listen to them before coming to a conclusion. However, try and make sure that you do focus in for the benefit of your alliance.

Originally Posted by 470-RBTX

That's when I was ready to drop the controls and tell them what I really thought, but Gracious Professionalism prevailed.

This would have been one of the worst decisions. A great way to piss off a potential alliance captain selecting you would be to drop the controls mid match and give up. Just even the thought is slightly disturbing. I'd personally be making sure that I wouldn't lose the match, and you should be doing the same.

Originally Posted by 470-RBTX

Scenarios like this have happened with many other big name teams in our area at competitions before, and I don't want this to smear the pristine FIM image, but does anyone else have these problems?

This specifically happened to me a number of times while competing in 2010 and 2011. However, I really embraced what they were saying and the team did the best we could to help the alliance win the match. I know it's not the strategy that you planned or wanted but it should still be a $@#$@#$@#$@# good one if it's coming from the team I believe your mentioning.

[EricH]

To me, it sounds like the team in question should have been reported to the referees for a [G15] watchlist. Uncivil behavior during a match is a potential red card. (Or the judges for removal from consideration from some of the awards--that sort of behavior would probably merit removal from consideration from the GP award and the Chairman's at a minimum.)

It also sounds like a team whose sole goal is to win a robotics competition, no matter who is in their way. This is unfortunate. Some time ago, I believe it was Dean had something to say at Kickoff, something to the effect of "Sometime, you are going to think that you are in a robot competition. Then you're in trouble."

If the team a powerhouse, they've presumably been around a while, long enough to have heard that. Long enough to have forgotten that. Long enough to lose sight of the bigger picture.

Negative treatment isn't confined to the top teams. Witness the many threads on how the top teams have mentors build their robots. And negativity breeds more negativity. It's possible that negative remarks come because a team is being negative, or perceived as such. However, I think teams like the one mentioned are a minority.


If I were in your shoes when they rammed you, I might have tipped the bridge, possibly the other way, and told them later, "You guys set the strategy, and we're sticking to it. There wasn't anything in there about you guys grabbing the balls off the bridge." (Or I might have just dropped the controls and sat there the rest of the match. They keep ramming, see the first paragraph in this post.)

[mrmummert]

Hello...

I've seen this before also...We are an average little small town team that luckly has done somewhat well. We've gone against and with
teams that have lots of resources and have done just as well. For some teams its all about winning matches and awards. For some teams its about showing the students what First is all about and sharing that with others. Teams that
have a "elitist attitude" or "better than thou" attitude are a turn off and
i generally ignore it while at competition unless something happens that is clearly way out of line. There is a old saying that what
goes around comes around and this sometimes happens to some of these
teams. To give a example at the Virginia regional this year on thursday and a couple matches friday morning our robot would'nt connect with the feild. A couple other teams made fun of us saying things like our robot was a piece of junk and such. Then after we were able to connect to the field and as friday afternoon and then saturday came and went we did very well (we went as far as the semi finals) and those who had made fun of us and mocked us fell silent. Some teams are humbled and learn and some never get it. Its unfortunate that this happens in a program that values cooperation and professionalism.

First is about teaching students about Science, Math, Engineering and
Technology and how it can apply to a students future and how it applies in the real world. In the real business world you have to learn to cooperate to advance and survive. I work for a large defense contractor (BAE)
who partners with other companies to do business. Sure there is a little
competition and one upman ship, but in the end we all cooperate. We have to. Don't let what other teams do discourage you from the goals you and your team are trying to reach.

[DominickC]

Originally Posted by EricH

If I were in your shoes when they rammed you, I might have tipped the bridge, possibly the other way, and told them later, "You guys set the strategy, and we're sticking to it. There wasn't anything in there about you guys grabbing the balls off the bridge." (Or I might have just dropped the controls and sat there the rest of the match. They keep ramming, see the first paragraph in this post.)

While what the other team did is not acceptable, I would view this as passive aggression and also not in the spirit of GP. I'd wait till the end of the match and try to digress with the team, noting what went good and what didn't go too well.

[pfreivald]

Sometimes, peoples' passion comes out as aggressive -- they often don't realize how aggressive and boorish they're being, and while that doesn't make it excusable it at least can be understandable. That's one reason why it's important to have a drive coach (whether student or mentor) who is confident enough to gently but firmly call them on it -- and mention it to their mentors later.

On the flip side, if you get chosen for an alliance it's because the alliance captain has a plan, and they've chosen you to fill a particular role in that plan. In that situation I think it's important to keep in mind that they're the captain by right of placement, and you've got a duty to inform their plan but ultimately abide by it.

[470-RBTX]

Originally Posted by rcmolloy

I'm fairly sure that your team can gather up the students, mentors, and resources and make yourself a superpower in a few short years. When it comes down to it, you really need to strive for excellence and always keep making modifications to your robot. That does come from the drive and excellence within the team though so inspiration and motivation will have to be great.

I know that, this team is my heart and soul, I made the remark because of a possible (and in my opinion likely) consolidation between our school and 66's.

Originally Posted by rcmolloy

This would have been one of the worst decisions. A great way to piss off a potential alliance captain selecting you would be to drop the controls mid match and give up. Just even the thought is slightly disturbing. I'd personally be making sure that I wouldn't lose the match, and you should be doing the same.

Where's the GP man? At what point do you realize FIRST is not about winning, it's "For Inspirations and Recognition of Science and Technology." Stop skipping Dean's Saturday morning sermon and understand his intentions! I love the competition aspect, but it's gotta have it's limits.
Love before Money
Gracious Professionalism before Victory!

[rcmolloy]

Originally Posted by 470-RBTX

Where's the GP man? At what point do you realize FIRST is not about winning, it's "For Inspirations and Recognition of Science and Technology." Stop skipping Dean's Saturday morning sermon and understand his intentions! I love the competition aspect, but it's gotta have it's limits.
Love before Money
Gracious Professionalism before Victory!

I do have a lot of gracious professionalism, that's something I'm not really worried about losing. One thing, however, is that I am highly, highly competitive when it comes to FIRST. There are no limits to competition unless they are negative towards other teams. Elites love to win and they fuel the inspiration for other teams and students to become better teams on the robot side of the spectrum. So even though you had a bad run in with this team, give them a second chance. I'm sure they would love to play with you guys again.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DominickC

While what the other team did is not acceptable, I would view this as passive aggression and also not in the spirit of GP. I'd wait till the end of the match and try to digress with the team, noting what went good and what didn't go too well.

Right. That's why I don't like this method. But, it is something I personally might do if I was already annoyed with said team.

At the end of the match, though, that's something that probably won't work. Remember, they didn't listen at all before the match (and that's not acceptable). Why should they listen at the end?

That's why the first thing I suggested was that someone should have informed the refs. And leaving the robot there (subject to the other team's ramming) would almost certainly draw a [G15] on somebody. But talking to the refs would put them on extra alert whenever that particular team was playing--they'd be bound to either clean up their act or get a red card or two.


With respect to alliance captains, if an alliance with that team on it were to pick me, I'd decline, which I can do for any reason, and after selection inform a trusted competition official or two along with the leadership for any team already on that alliance that the reason didn't have to do with either team's robot capabilities, but that I didn't think we could work together based on their attitude during quals. I don't think anyone's ever declined based on a team's attitude, at least publicly, so that would hopefully get them to do some soul-searching as a team.

Do I not get into eliminations? Probably. Does my action in that case benefit my team and other teams? Probably--not necessarily in the short term, but in the long term.

[mathking]

Incidents like the one you describe Joel are one of the things that irritates me about FIRST competitions. (That said, incidents like that irritate me at work, they irritate me as a track coach, the irritate me when my kids are in activities. It is not unique to FIRST.) These types of incidents are one reason we have almost always had a mentor as coach instead of a student. Our students will not behave like you described, at least not more than once and not without an apology.

This is not to say that mentors don't exhibit this type of behavior. I agree with moogboy that most of the time I have experienced this type of behavior in FIRST it has been from mentors. But a respected mentor can tell a student to stop bad behavior and it will stop. This isn't always true with student coaches. In the last 9 years we have played many matches, and had only four different coaches. Our current coach is in his 4th season and has coached every match but one (I coached that one so he could watch from up high) in that time. He is good at the technical aspects of coaching, but his best attribute is his amazing ability to work with anyone.

As for the elite teams knowing what they are doing, I have found that this type of behavior often occurs when a great robot masks on the field strategy faults. But that is irrelevant. If a team needs you to change strategy, they should politely say "Hey, can you move over a little so we can pick up those balls? Thanks." It is not only more polite but more effective and leads to better cooperation and teamwork.

As a sports team coach as well as a robotics coach, I think that the biggest mistake people make in evaluating alliance partners is over-focusing on how well the robot works and not focusing enough on how well the team interacts with its teammates. We had a year when we were allied with 48, at their first regional of the year and they were without a fully functional robot. But they played the game so well, and complimented our strengths and weaknesses so well, that we won a match against the two best robots that we had no business winning. Their coach that year was calmly walking between all three teams suggesting actions that worked really well. As a coach, it was probably my most thrilling game ever. That feeling of everyone being on the same page, everything clicking. We absolutely would have picked them as alliance partners, but for the fact that one of those two top teams picked them first.

I think it is worthwhile to approach a team mentor after an incident like that and calmly, politely explain how their team's actions made your team feel. One year, after much reflection, I told another team's lead mentor that we did not pick them for an alliance partner because of the behavior of one of their mentors, who was their drive team coach. We respected the team, and I didn't want them thinking it was something we had against them. But this mentor was their coach and made our drive team very unhappy when we were paired with them during qualification. Enough that they decided they would rather play with someone else even if it meant decreasing our chance of victory. The head mentor thanked me for coming and talking to them.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by rcmolloy

I do have a lot of gracious professionalism, that's something I'm not really worried about losing. One thing, however, is that I am highly, highly competitive when it comes to FIRST. There are no limits to competition unless they are negative towards other teams. Elites love to win and they fuel the inspiration for other teams and students to become better teams on the robot side of the spectrum. So even though you had a bad run in with this team, give them a second chance. I'm sure they would love to play with you guys again.

In other words, the team should turn the other cheek or, in this case, let their robot get rammed from the other side?

Jane

[BJC]

After a blue alliance search I am extremely confident that I know what team you are talking about. All I can say that in all my experiences with this team I have never seen them do any of the things you described and that the people I've met on their team are very nice and always willing to explain their robot or talk pre-match strategy. In-match gameplay is very intense, they were almost certainly yelling to get your attention, not because they are mad at you or anything.

Also, you should always play to win your matches. To do anything less is a disservice to your alliance.

[Adam Freeman]

Joe,

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I am pretty sure the team in question is mine, since we played together this weekend in match 64 @ Northville.

I apologize for not being more open to discussion about strategy before the match. I typically try to let the other teams tell me what they'd like to do during the match and as long as it doesn't put the match at risk I try to be open to letting them show of what they can do.

In this case, I do not remember the discussions we had before the match...so I cannot comment on how open or un-open I was to your strategy suggestions.

In most cases, we have a pretty set strategy that we run during each match. After Hybrid, we try to grab the balls off the alliance bridge since they are an easy source of balls and clears them away from the bridge to help eliminate balls from jamming under the bridge when our partners are balancing. Again, since I don't specifically remember the discussions... I can't say if we discussed us performing that task or not.

I will apologize for my driver. As a drive team we tend to be very focused and aggressive on the task at hand when a match starts. This match was very important to us, since we had a chance to clinch the #1 seed. Not that it is a reason to be non-gracious or un-professional. We teach our drivers to do exactly what I say, when I say it....so if I told them to get the balls off the alliance bridge, thats what they were focused on. Since there was some confusion about who was going to the bridge...I am sure they were just frustrated they could not accomplish that task. I know that he was not trying to ram into you, it was just an accident. I remember him yelling for you to move and I believe I told scoled him to relax and stop yelling. What I didn't do and should have is come and apologize after the match.

We worked with your team multiple times this season (Waterford and Northville), both as Alliance partners and Cooperative partners. I have talked to your drivers many times discussing strategy and coop plans. I was under the impression that we worked together pretty well.

With regard to attempting to talk strategy to our people in the pits. They have no control over what happens on the field, so they usually direct teams to come find me. Since there is plenty of time during queuing to do all the strategy discussions, thats typically when I start talking to our partners.

I would strongly disagree with your statement that our pit is unapproachable. We have students available at all times to discuss our robot and mentors there to help them if there are questions they can't answer. Unless the robot is completely damaged and needs work, I have never seen anyone "blown off" if they needed help or had questions.

Our team agrees 100% with your statement about helping rookies and any other team that needs help. We had students and mentors all over the pits helping teams with whatever they needed. Since our team is large enough we can do both perform on the field and help others.

Are we "elitist", I don't believe so. Are we aggressive, focused, and driven? Yes! We believe we have a very good robot this year, capable of meeting our expectations for this year...if we continue to work hard and improve every single match.

Again, I apologize for not being open to your strategy suggestions and for our actions during the match. I will keep this in mind during furture strategy discussions with teams and will try to keep both mine and my driver's emotions in check during the match.

I wish you would have come talk to me yesterday after this incident. 470 was on our list of potential partners and we came very close to selecting you with the 24th pick.

Sorry,
Adam

I've been in a match or two similar to your story. However, the teams we were with weren't elitist teams. They were average, like us at the time.

I'll cut to the chase. In the match, this team was the primary scorer. They were really good at putting up tubes, though they weren't a top-tier team. Our other alliance member was supposed to play defense, and we were told to herd tubes over, which worked for us, since our arm was broken.

Anywho, as soon as autonomous ended, we started herding tubes over, the scoring team was scoring, and the defensive bot was getting in other team's ways, like it was told to. Around the last 50 seconds or so of the match, the scoring team started yelling at us saying "256! get out of our way!". And while we were close to them, we weren't anywhere near their path, so we backed away a little. Then, their coach yelled at us asking why we were messing around. The drivers kept yelling at us. Then, at the 15 second mark, the scoring team went for the minibot poles. Our defensive robot was on one, and we were on the other. The scoring robot went over to the defensive robot, pushed it out of the way, almost to a tipping point, and deployed its own minibot....3 seconds before the timer was at 10 seconds (deploying time).

So what happened here? Let's see:
-When the scoring team was yelling at us to get out of the way, it was really the defensive team they were looking at, who was preventing the opponents from getting a tube, and the scoring team wanted to go where the pushing match was. Their coach, not hearing them, sees us trying to back away for some reason, and yells at us for goofing off.

-As for the minibot poles, it was agreed early on since the scoring team wasn't sure their minibot would deploy that the defensive bot and us would deploy our minibots. For some reason, they change their mind during the endgame, believing their minibot was faster than the defensive bots (ours was the slowest, yet they didn't go for us ), and instead of sticking to the plan they made up, decided the defensive robot didn't need to deploy, and pushed them out of the way, only to deploy early and make the tower not count.

We lost the match, and of course, the first thing the scoring team did was blame us, and the defensive team, for not following directions.

IMO, there were two big factors playing into this mess:
1. The team wasn't very GP. This is partially it, since they were kinda mean, but the biggest reason is #2.
2. No communication between the teams. The scoring team told us both that we shouldn't talk mid-match, since it would make us (them) loose our (their) focus. So not only did we as teams not talk, but apparently their coach didn't listen to them as well. That just messed up the whole match right there. Furthermore, from what I saw, their driver and operator didn't know what each other was doing. I could hear them arguing amongst themselves, saying "I thought you were going to do this" and "Why would I do that", and many other things that obviously showed they weren't prepared. Even worse, their coach didn't know the rules of the game, and told us to steal tubes from the opponent's lane. :|


In the end, we all get matches with teams we think are being elitist, but sometimes it's a little more than that, and you have to look it over to see what the problem really is. They may have a reason for doing what they did. Talk to them. It's almost always a misunderstanding of some sort.