Elitist Teams

[Don Wright]

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman

I wish you would have come talk to me yesterday after this incident.

I certainly don't want to pile on the OP...but I don't think this quote can be stressed enough. Let's talk to each other in person, at the event (wait some time after a match for people to calm down if you want) instead of waiting to come on here and posting it...

I promise you that a calm approach to the mentors of the team you are upset about will yield a much better experience and outcome.

We are all in this because we care... I don't think there are any bad or mean people in FIRST. I'm sure 99.75% of the time it's really a misunderstanding...

[Ekcrbe]

The saddest thing about this incident is that I knew exactly which competition this was, I was there, and I knew exactly which team you were referring to without checking the match schedule or reading what Adam Freeman had to say. I haven't been in an alliance station driving with them, but from seeing them around the stands and elsewhere at competitions (both of ours this year), they have come off as slightly above everyone else. I can't speak to the merit of the individuals on the team in a vacuum, but as a whole I was less than thrilled. I have little doubt that the people themselves are are class individuals.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Don Wright

I certainly don't want to pile on the OP...but I don't think this quote can be stressed enough. Let's talk to each other in person, at the event (wait some time after a match for people to calm down if you want) instead of waiting to come on here and posting it...

I promise you that a calm approach to the mentors of the team you are upset about will yield a much better experience and outcome.

We are all in this because we care... I don't think there are any bad or mean people in FIRST. I'm sure 99.75% of the time it's really a misunderstanding...

Don, why would 470 feel inclined to try to approach the team after being snubbed and ignored when they approached them before the match? The ball was in Adam's court, not the other way around.

Jane

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Don, why would 470 feel inclined to try to approach the team after being snubbed and ignored when they approached them before the match? The ball was in Adam's court, not the other way around.

Jane

How would Adam know that the other team felt "snubbed and ignored" when they followed a SOP (that doesn't sound offensive to me at all) that has apparently served them well for a long while?

(insert reasonbly astute observer joke here)

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by BigJ

How would Adam know that the other team felt "snubbed and ignored" when they followed a SOP (that doesn't sound offensive to me at all) that has apparently served them well for a long while?

(insert reasonbly astute observer joke here)

I'm pretty sure that if a team rams a robot intentionally, the apology and explanation should come from the team that does the ramming.

Jane

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Don Wright

I certainly don't want to pile on the OP...but I don't think this quote can be stressed enough. Let's talk to each other in person, at the event (wait some time after a match for people to calm down if you want) instead of waiting to come on here and posting it...

I promise you that a calm approach to the mentors of the team you are upset about will yield a much better experience and outcome.

We are all in this because we care... I don't think there are any bad or mean people in FIRST. I'm sure 99.75% of the time it's really a misunderstanding...

Yes, in an ideal world, the OP would have gone back to the pits, talked with the team, and everything would have been cleared up. On the other hand, if your perception is that you've already been dismissed by said teams in their pits, and pre-match in queue, why would you want to go a third round at talking to a team that apparently has no interest in talking to you?

So while you're right that this was likely a misunderstanding, I don't think the OP is at fault for not wanting to wade further into what he perceived as a bad situation. Fact of the matter is, if your team is coming off like that to someone, then your team probably needs to work a bit on its public relations. Which is going to necessarily involve feedback like this from other teams, since you can't judge the public's perception of your organization from inside your organization. So if you want other teams to see you as inclusive and willing to work with them, then you should see criticism like this as an opportunity for improvement.

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

I'm pretty sure that if a team rams a robot intentionally, the apology and explanation should come from the team that does the ramming.

Jane

I apologize that I must have skimmed over the word "ram", but the verbs "snubbed and ignored" to me sounded like they were referring to the verbal communication pre-match.

[Adam Freeman]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Don, why would 470 feel inclined to try to approach the team after being snubbed and ignored when they approached them before the match? The ball was in Adam's court, not the other way around.

Jane

Jane, Yes I agree 100%...although I did not think of it as an issue at the time. In retrospect, I should have been more proactive to ensure the issue was cleared up.

Just to put some additional details out there, we needed 4pts to wrap up the #1 seed. We had a mishap on the Coopertition bridge, where we somehow got team 3536 onto the bridge while not straight, so when we started driving up behind them they got one wheel shoved over the edge. We were unable to do our traditional process of Coop balancing so we tried to different method and failed....ending up with 3536 flipped over.

After the match, I was discussing the details of the coop balance with my driver and other mentors so we could be prepared for that issue in the future. My attention was not on the previous issue with 470.

I honestly didn't know it was an issue...or I would have found 470 and apologized to them.

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

So if you want other teams to see you as inclusive and willing to work with them, then you should see criticism like this as an opportunity for improvement.

I have sent an email to all of the HOT Team to review the comments in this thread and strive to not come off as "elitist" and display gracious professionalism at all times.

We have much to improve on both on and off the field.

[pfreivald]

Am I the only person who feels that this would have made a better private e-mail than forum thread?

[P.J.]

I've been telling people for a few weeks now, since the incidents at Toronto, that I was glad to be in Michigan. Glad because I thought we were above all this. I thought that we were all competing together trying to better each other, avoiding petty conflict.

Now I see that I was wrong. Threads like this make me sad. Why try to call someone else out on a public forum? That is what isn't GP. You may think you were being anonymous and concealing the team's identity, but it took me about 30 seconds to guess which team it was and then look up matches to confirm it. That's what isn't GP, trying to garner sympathy for yourself while also tearing another team down.

I'm not saying their actions were entirely acceptable, if that's really what happened, I feel you may be exaggerating a little, but that's neither here nor there. But I will say this, their actions were no different from tons of other drive teams/coaches that I see all the time. I've refereed four events this year (including Northville) and there are a lot of teams that are WAY less GP than the team in question. I see coaches yelling and screaming and running over to yell at other people all the time. And this is good teams, bad teams, average teams, simply put everyone.

If this is HOT, which I will not say for certain because the OP hasn't confirmed this, I can tell you this. They are some of the best people to work with in all of FIRST. I have several very good friends on the team, and as a whole we have always worked very well with them. Are they focused on winning? Yes. Does that make them not GP? No. As long as they don't gloat or belittle others with their success. Which I have never seen them do.

Just my opinion on this issue.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by P.J.

I've been telling people for a few weeks now, since the incidents at Toronto, that I was glad to be in Michigan. Glad because I thought we were above all this. I thought that we were all competing together trying to better each other, avoiding petty conflict.

Now I see that I was wrong. Threads like this make me sad. Why try to call someone else out on a public forum? That is what isn't GP. You may think you were being anonymous and concealing the team's identity, but it took me about 30 seconds to guess which team it was and then look up matches to confirm it. That's what isn't GP, trying to garner sympathy for yourself while also tearing another team down.

I'm not saying their actions were entirely acceptable, if that's really what happened, I feel you may be exaggerating a little, but that's neither here nor there. But I will say this, their actions were no different from tons of other drive teams/coaches that I see all the time. I've refereed four events this year (including Northville) and there are a lot of teams that are WAY less GP than the team in question. I see coaches yelling and screaming and running over to yell at other people all the time. And this is good teams, bad teams, average teams, simply put everyone.

If this is HOT, which I will not say for certain because the OP hasn't confirmed this, I can tell you this. They are some of the best people to work with in all of FIRST. I have several very good friends on the team, and as a whole we have always worked very well with them. Are they focused on winning? Yes. Does that make them not GP? No. As long as they don't gloat or belittle others with their success. Which I have never seen them do.

Just my opinion on this issue.

You're right. If a team feels slighted and hurt by a veteran team, it's much much better for them to suck it up and pretend nothing happened. Much better to let the other team continue to believe they have an untarnished image in public than to bring up uncomfortable concerns with their public image. If it's HOT, well they think they're supportive and inclusive of other teams, so clearly 470 is wrong in feeling hurt and snubbed here. Because that's not what HOT intended.

Sorry, but I don't think that's the correct approach here. I think Adam's post above is highly laudable and correct in accepting the criticism and looking to improve from it. This doesn't mean Adam thinks his team is universally evil and horrible. It simply means he's recognizing that someone had a negative interaction with his team, and he want to address the issue to reduce such interactions in the future. THAT is the kind of GP response I'd expect from a team of HOT's caliber. Not shrugging the issue off and lamenting that someone had the gall to bring it up in a public forum. Huge kudos to HOT for looking to improve their team at all times like this.

[pfreivald]

I've had few interactions with HOT, but they were a class act every time. The response to this thread is no exception.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

Am I the only person who feels that this would have made a better private e-mail than forum thread?

Maybe, but personally, I think the conduct and posts HOT made are pretty inspiring, so I'm glad this thread was public.

There are two ways to deal with criticism - get defensive and ignore it, or listen and try and figure out why the critic is saying what they are and work to improve from it. The latter is generally much more healthy, even if you don't agree with what they are literally saying, or see things differently.

That a team like HOT listens to a post indirectly calling them out for perceived actions, then provides their side of the story while being apologetic and understanding is the definition of a class act to me.

[Paul Copioli]

Anyone who knows Adam knows he is a class act, on and off the FRC playing field. I have had the pleasure in coaching with him, against him, and hanging out after events. He is an inspiration to both students and mentors alike. He posts on this forum in response to the criticism are spot on and appropriate.

Unfortunately, incidents like the one the OP mentioned will happen and the more we communicate about it, the less misunderstanding we will have.

I am glad the OP brought this up so everyone could see what many of us in Michigan already see: Adam Freeman is a class act that we can all learn from.

Paul

[JustinRueb1891]

As a driver last year in our team's first ever Championship appearance, I was extremely surprised at how many teams were "elitist". As a small team without a lot of funding, we only go to the Utah regional each year, admittedly one of the smaller regionals without a lot of "superpower" teams. Last year we did fairly well and made it to the semifinals, losing to the winning alliance, and qualified to Championships through the Regional Chairman's Award. Though everyone was highly competitive, even the top teams were easy to work with/against and we all had a lot of fun. At Curie field, however, there were numerous occasions where we were simply told what to do without anyone allowing our input on strategy. Another problem was that as a student, our field coach was frequently pushed aside in strategy discussions by mentor coaches. I'm sure that no one actively tries to do this, but at some point younger or weaker teams get the impression that the top teams are the elite and the rest of us are simply annoyances that must be dealt with in quals.