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Unread 25-03-2012, 18:10
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Re: Referees and Human Players

Volunteer coordinators were explicitly told to have five referees and one head referee - no more, no less.

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Referees: Strict limit due to desire on FRC’s part for greater consistency in the calls. VCs are saying that recruiting and retaining referees is difficult due to stringent cap on number of volunteers. VCs state they need more flexibility in staffing, and not be limited in terms of numbers. VC request to fix the situation this year.
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Referee Update: Why can we only have 5 referees, not more? Update from FRC – no solution for this season but to update [FRC Volunteer Coordinator]. If this rule is affecting your event, please alert [FRCVC]. [She] needs more solid feedback so she can advocate for the VCS regarding referees.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 18:38
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by TKM.368 View Post
Volunteer coordinators were explicitly told to have five referees and one head referee - no more, no less.
Sounds kind of like a Harrison Bergeron approach to the problem: if you can't improve, at least make every event equally bad. Instead, I think people would be willing to accept a small systemic inconsistency due to some events having more (properly qualified) referees, because it simply represents an effort above and beyond FIRST's minimum standard of enforcement.

Incidentally, the head referee is entitled to rely upon information from sources other than referees, per [T13]. So even if an event can't station a true referee there, they could theoretically have another trusted, competent volunteer relay notice of the infractions observed. This could be useful in terms of catching coaches operating robots, or illegal human player shots.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 19:40
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post
Incidentally, the head referee is entitled to rely upon information from sources other than referees, per [T13]. So even if an event can't station a true referee there, they could theoretically have another trusted, competent volunteer relay notice of the infractions observed. This could be useful in terms of catching coaches operating robots, or illegal human player shots.
I'd like to think I'm competent... trusted, who knows. As a field reset volunteer and wannabe ref, I've tried to notify referees about fouls I've seen... in previous years I was told off by the FTA, and this year the refs seemed to mostly ignore me (as I stated earlier).

I did notice the refs notify the human players several times, including during matches, why they had incurred fouls.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 20:03
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Re: Referees and Human Players

I've always worked under the assumption that I'm not supposed to try to correct people during matches, but after a match I definitely go to teams that incur a lot of penalties and tell them what they were doing wrong.

And Adam, was that the match with the line penalties or the one where the human player was wearing the coach button? Because that was another match with over 20 points in penalties. But that was a qualification match, I believe.

Just another thing to check before your matches. Wear the right button please oh please.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 20:41
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by P.J. View Post
...Adam, was that the match with the line penalties or the one where the human player was wearing the coach button? Because that was another match with over 20 points in penalties. But that was a qualification match, I believe.
This was definitely for line violations. I was sitting right next to the field waiting for our next match.

I just felt really bad for him, since he obviously wasn't taught how to inbound the ball effectively, nor was he paying any attention to the line.

The ref behind him would hold his hand up in the air everytime he crossed the line and the ref at the penalty station would input the foul...but never was there an indication to the student or the alliance that multiple fouls were occurring.

I agree with Richard that the responsibility is 100% on the coach to teach and correct this type of behavior, but in this instance I don't think anyone on that side of the glass knew fouls were occurring.

Just seems like a flag should be raised and pointed at the offending human player or something, so we (drive team and coaches) know what's going on during the match.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 20:47
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Re: Referees and Human Players

The refs at GTR east seemed to notice the human players [me included (whoops)] step over the line and take balls during hybrid fairly often. It was so common, that if my memory serves me well, the MC specifically mentioned these 2 common fouls on friday at lunch. After that, the number of human player fouls reduced from slim to none.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 21:16
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by Adam Freeman View Post
Just seems like a flag should be raised and pointed at the offending human player or something, so we (drive team and coaches) know what's going on during the match.
The problem is, the refs who can normally see this happen and are calling these are standing in a line pretty much parallel to the drivers, so when we do this (At least that's what I always try to do, point at the offending person that is) they don't necessarily see. The field is not idealized for reffing this year, unfortunately.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 21:50
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by Adam Freeman View Post
The ref behind him would hold his hand up in the air everytime he crossed the line and the ref at the penalty station would input the foul...but never was there an indication to the student or the alliance that multiple fouls were occurring.
This statement is a bit disturbing to me, are you saying that there was more than the standard 4 ref 1 head ref configuration in this match?
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Unread 25-03-2012, 21:54
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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This statement is a bit disturbing to me, are you saying that there was more than the standard 4 ref 1 head ref configuration in this match?
Yes there was. I didn't know that we weren't supposed to do this I guess. At Kettering and Northville this year, we were fortunate enough to have 2 extra certified referees on staff. So during eliminations we put the two extras behind the player stations to watch for human fouls. I was the one who suggested this, and I apologize if this was somehow against the rules. I don't see how this is really an issue, we made an executive decision to help us make sure the matches stayed clean. But if there is something against this I was unaware.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 22:17
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by P.J. View Post
Yes there was. I didn't know that we weren't supposed to do this I guess. At Kettering and Northville this year, we were fortunate enough to have 2 extra certified referees on staff. So during eliminations we put the two extras behind the player stations to watch for human fouls. I was the one who suggested this, and I apologize if this was somehow against the rules. I don't see how this is really an issue, we made an executive decision to help us make sure the matches stayed clean. But if there is something against this I was unaware.
I think back judges are a good idea but if it wasn't done throughout the entire tournament it shouldn't have been done during eliminations. Eliminations should be called exactly the way qualifications were.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 22:31
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by IndySam View Post
I think back judges are a good idea but if it wasn't done throughout the entire tournament it shouldn't have been done during eliminations. Eliminations should be called exactly the way qualifications were.
There's certainly validity to that idea, but I think that overall, if better enforcement (relative to the rulebook) is the result, the change in officiating practice is justifiable. After all, it's hard for a team to credibly argue that just because they got away with a violation before, they should get away with it again.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 22:34
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post
There's certainly validity to that idea, but I think that overall, if better enforcement (relative to the rulebook) is the result, the change in officiating practice is justifiable. After all, it's hard for a team to credibly argue that just because they got away with a violation before, they should get away with it again.
I agree - plenty of "real" sports do something similar (Baseball has extra umpires in the World Series, tennis has video reviews at major tournaments, soccer has goal judges in the Champions League) and people recognize that this is a good thing. Of course, the optimal solution is that these extra qualified referees could have been at the field for the entire regional...
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Unread 25-03-2012, 22:53
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by bduddy View Post
I agree - plenty of "real" sports do something similar (Baseball has extra umpires in the World Series, tennis has video reviews at major tournaments, soccer has goal judges in the Champions League) and people recognize that this is a good thing. Of course, the optimal solution is that these extra qualified referees could have been at the field for the entire regional...
True but those players are professionals who have played their sports for literally thousands of hours where most of ours will never get to play more than an hour in their lives.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 23:00
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post
After all, it's hard for a team to credibly argue that just because they got away with a violation before, they should get away with it again.
Tristan, you know that robot inspectors hear that kind of argument from teams all the time! One of my favorite changes to the manual for 2012 is the prohibition on questioning referee calls for simple fouls.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 23:13
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Tristan, you know that robot inspectors hear that kind of argument from teams all the time! One of my favorite changes to the manual for 2012 is the prohibition on questioning referee calls for simple fouls.
Mine too. Of course I'm also not a big believer in "instant replay" either; but that's another story. The players are human (or robots) and make mistakes -- so do the referees, umpires and judges of the world. So sometimes calls will get missed -- get over it. It's part of being gracious and professional.
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