Tips for Team Promotion to Scouts

Originally Posted by LeadU2Fun

These are awesome ideas! Thanks for the feedback. We always stuck to the plan our alliance agreed upon but how are you able to quantify that to scouting teams? Also, sometimes that hurt us. One of our losses was 9 to 10 because we were doing the coopertition bridge that we were on but the opposing alliance couldn't get up the bridge. In the meantime our alliance team was supposed to balance the red bridge and never did it. The extra 10 points we had demonstrated in 3 other matches would have won that match. Is that how you quantify that you are good at teamwork and executing the agreed upon strategy? I appreciate all your suggestions!

When I am looking at teams for potential alliances, I look solely at the team, not the win-loss-tie record. That's how many great teams do it, so I've adapted it and it works quite well. Most people look only at what you do. I don't care if you lost match 17 34-26, I care how many of those 26 points you scored, by what means, and what YOU did. I don't care what your alliance members did, and for the most part, I don't care what your opponents did (I do care sometimes).

All in all, nobody is going to look down on you for loosing a match, or for something your alliance members screwed up on, and if they do, there are obviously better alliance partners for you than them.

[LeadU2Fun]

It didn't seem to matter at our regional. I don't know if teams weren't recording those stats. I know that the match you talked about we scored 16 of the 26 points. I'm seeing that I need to quantify all of our stats and get them out better. Some teams selected for the tournament only scored 2 pts and had history of technical issues. They did feed the balls during autonomous to the #1 robot but that was an easy recoding after alliance selection that we could have done as well. One problem I am seeing is that we relied on the idea scouting teams would see what we could accomplish. We will definitely be more proactive next year! Great feedback from everyone!

Originally Posted by LeadU2Fun

It didn't seem to matter at our regional. I don't know if teams weren't recording those stats. I know that the match you talked about we scored 16 of the 26 points. I'm seeing that I need to quantify all of our stats and get them out better. Some teams selected for the tournament only scored 2 pts and had history of technical issues. They did feed the balls during autonomous to the #1 robot but that was an easy recoding after alliance selection that we could have done as well. One problem I am seeing is that we relied on the idea scouting teams would see what we could accomplish. We will definitely be more proactive next year! Great feedback from everyone!

....That match was hypothetical. i made it up. What you are describing to me doesn't seem accurate. I am in no way calling you a liar, but there are some things you say that don't look 100% accurate. I have never seen a regional where the not as good robots are chosen for alliances over the good ones.

Also, that is a great goal. Be proactive next year. You can't rely on the other team's scouters. Go up and show them yourselves.

[MrForbes]

As an aside, you might also make sure your team scouts your own team's performance as objectively as you scout the other teams...then you'll see where you fit in, and you'll get a better idea of how other teams see you (assuming they are doing performance based scouting).

I talked with the scouting people on a couple of the higher seeded teams, they definitely were looking at the field performance of the other teams, and basing their alliance selection largely on that.

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

....That match was hypothetical. i made it up. What you are describing to me doesn't seem accurate. I am in no way calling you a liar, but there are some things you say that don't look 100% accurate. I have never seen a regional where the not as good robots are chosen for alliances over the good ones.

It happens all the time, I don't have any recent examples but two that I remember from a few years back, 2007 Boston Regional team 1919 picked a team with their first pick who had not scored all regional, and another team with their second pick who had not only not scored but had been penalized multiple times for a net contribution of -30 points. All three bots had netted a total of -13 points through the qualification rounds. Many better scorers were on the board at both of their picks. Notably 125 placed the 6th most rings at the regional and was picked by the 3rd seed with their second pick.

It even happens to good teams, 47 made a mistake with their second pick at Championships in 2005 picking a bot that was averaging 1-2 tetras a match when there were many better scorers available.

SOme times it is a mistake, sometimes it is bad scouting, some times it is due to teams picking friends instead of the best alliance available, all in all it does happen.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

I don't care what your alliance members did

While I completely agree with your point, there are situations where you can gather a lot of information based on what a robot's partner does. At Wisconsin this past weekend, 2169 routinly had their third partner block inbound passes, play defense on fender scorers and other smart strategies. From this, we learned that 2169 was a very smart team that scouted, understood strategy, and could lead alliances. It does take an experience scout/group of scouts to pick up on these things, though.

[LeadU2Fun]

Jim,

We don't have the student power to have our own "scouting team" yet. It would be interesting to get those stats from one of the large higher seeded teams. Do you know anyone that has them. We followed teams we knew personally and saw them get picked even though it didn't seem like they performed on the field and had technical issues. When we were alias in a match they tipped easily trying to balance in coopertition since they had never balanced. We had multiple balancing bonuses and a coopertition balance. But the quantifying statistics by team would help. The android app only added up the alliance scores for each category for each match the team was on and not the actual performance of the team. If you know anyone that has them it would be nice to see and use as a training for my team to do scouting next year. Thanks.

[bam-bam]

Originally Posted by LeadU2Fun

Jim,

We don't have the student power to have our own "scouting team" yet. It would be interesting to get those stats from one of the large higher seeded teams. Do you know anyone that has them. We followed teams we knew personally and saw them get picked even though it didn't seem like they performed on the field and had technical issues. When we were alias in a match they tipped easily trying to balance in coopertition since they had never balanced. We had multiple balancing bonuses and a coopertition balance. But the quantifying statistics by team would help. The android app only added up the alliance scores for each category for each match the team was on and not the actual performance of the team. If you know anyone that has them it would be nice to see and use as a training for my team to do scouting next year. Thanks.

Ask for collaboration with a neighboring team at your next regional (through some blue alliance research, I'm guessing next year). Granted you guys have to share data, you now have twice the manpower literally at your hands and the ability to gather solid data. Besides, it's a great opportunity to make friends and solidify your relations with other teams.

As for promotion- SELL YOUR ROBOT (AND I DON'T MEAN LITERALLY ). Create the opportunity. Put your robot above the others.

As many others had said to me, you can't just go up and say our robot is a great match for you guys. You have to sell on your best aspects of the robot (in this case, it just seems that you guys have the solidity of everything- which amazing!). Some of the best robots fly under the radar simply because it doesn't look good or the team just didn't have substantial scouting data. I have a vague suspicion that your robot and team went under the radar because of both. In short, SELL!!!

Hope this helps for next year!

[KevinGoneNuts]

This year in Sacramento, 4159 ranked 10th so we knew we would be picking an alliance. As a result we sat down as a team on Friday night and wrote down all other 49 teams on a whiteboard and went down the list and wrote down the pros and cons of each team. The observations were taken from almost all matches on Friday. It was extremely helpful, but what really helped us get an even better idea of teams (seeded below us) were the ones that approached us on Saturday letting us know they would like to work with us. 3256 gave us a nice flyer with their robot information on it (Very nice guys, I really liked it!) This is a very good strategy and it makes you remember the teams.

But as others have said, you need to maintain relationships with teams. For most, scouting starts on Thursday morning. That's when you really let people know who your team is and why you will be good to work with. Friday/Saturday just affirms or negates what you stated.

[Ben Martin]

Originally Posted by LeadU2Fun

We don't have the student power to have our own "scouting team" yet.

We participate in 2-3 team scouting alliances each year for this very reason. The logistics of setting it up and getting everyone data for their matches can be a nightmare at a small regional (since somebody is up basically every third match), but it makes it so students don't have to devote as much of the day to scouting matches.

Originally Posted by LeadU2Fun

If you know anyone that has them it would be nice to see and use as a training for my team to do scouting next year. Thanks.

I have old quantitative scouted data for several regionals dating back to 2009. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you would like a sample.

For our team, our pick list is almost totally based on robot capabilities (wide robots only this year, if possible) and match performance, with priority put toward the more recent matches. If one tries to sell himself or herself to us, we will cross reference his or her claims with our quantitative data and impressions by our subjective scouters.

[LeadU2Fun]

Thanks again for your posts. These are great procedures you are using. I appreciate your gracious professionalism in making our team greater for next year!

[Hawiian Cadder]

Team 1410 at our regional gave me a sheet of paper with robot specs on it which i proceed to write every other bit of scouting info I needed for the day on. If you gave every captain from a high seeded team a print out for them to keep track of teams and what they are able to do well on when they go up to pick, I am sure that one would pick you.

[remulasce]

If 2nd round pick is all you have a shot at getting, I would suggest focusing on just one aspect of your robot and sell that. Often, especially at early regionals, past the ~6 top tier teams, there are only ~8 more mediocre teams that can do all the game requires. Past those, it gets extremely hard to organize teams into a pick list, since often /none/ of the last 10 teams on your top 24 list can score at an elimination level. In that case, it really helps to provide just one "service"- this year, a simple bridge-pusher or a solid drivetrain would have been huge for a second pick.

It's late now, but if you can spend a summer designing and putting together a solid "team base" you modify slightly and use every year, it will really help no matter what the game is. Even if you do nothing else, you know you can drive, and driving fast (or at all) really catches a scout's eye. 294 has refined the same basic base over a period of 5 years. The only year we haven't used it in that time was 2009, and we don't like to talk about that.

Originally Posted by remulasce

If 2nd round pick is all you have a shot at getting, I would suggest focusing on just one aspect of your robot and sell that. Often, especially at early regionals, past the ~6 top tier teams, there are only ~8 more mediocre teams that can do all the game requires. Past those, it gets extremely hard to organize teams into a pick list, since often /none/ of the last 10 teams on your top 24 list can score at an elimination level. In that case, it really helps to provide just one "service"- this year, a simple bridge-pusher or a solid drivetrain would have been huge for a second pick.

It's late now, but if you can spend a summer designing and putting together a solid "team base" you modify slightly and use every year, it will really help no matter what the game is. Even if you do nothing else, you know you can drive, and driving fast (or at all) really catches a scout's eye. 294 has refined the same basic base over a period of 5 years. The only year we haven't used it in that time was 2009, and we don't like to talk about that.

/offtopic/
Speaking of 294's base, do you have any pictures of it? I'd love to see one up close.
/offtopic/

One of the best ways to be noticed by other teams, though obvious, is to build a good robot. If you're trying to sell yourself, you need to have things to sell, and no matter how good of a salesman you are, the top teams aren't going to pay attention to you if you don't have a good robot. Strike that. Not good. Strive for great. That way, next year, you won't need to worry about selling your team; You'll be the one picking.

[Grim Tuesday]

I want to second the comment above mine: Build a strong drive train.


Let me say it again:

Build a strong drive train.

When you're a second pick tier team at a shallow event, often the best indicator of picking is the strength and reliability of your drivetrain.


But onto your original topic, if you're short of students, use a scouting conglomerate like Cowscout, or some other scouting database. Figure out what you want to be picking for, and use numbers like OPR, CCWM, and rankings guide you. Walking around the pits, and watching matches for intuition can be good backups.