Elitist Teams

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by 470-RBTX

A
My team has never been a first super power, and highly doubt we will be soon. We put gracious professionalism at our forefront, instead of looking for ways to win matches, we look for ways to help rookies. So when I recently competed with a team that had an elitist "we're better than you" attitude it left a bad taste in my mouth.

This team is completely unapproachable in their pits, I tried to talk strategy with them, and they denied me even though they had anything better to do.

Then once we got to the cue, they showed up and I tried to to talk to them again, instead of a discussion, they told us what we were going to do the whole match as if it wasn't disputable, as if we didn't have a say. I was mad, but I figured we'll get the win and the qualification points so it's no biggie.

I'm really glad you brought this up. This is by and far the WORST year for gracious professionalism by several teams. Too many years in first? Maybe. We've been at it for 8 years now. We ran into the same thing at one of the regionals this year. One of the lower numbered teams came to us and said "this is what you are going to do." I don't know about you, but as a mentor I spent time undoing what this does to a drive team when drivers from another team come over and TELL YOU what your team is going to do in a match. This is as bad as a team that purely lies that they can do something and then can't in the match.

Shall I go on? How about the team that completely took over one part of the stands that our team had saved for the mentors and pit crew to come up in the stands to watch the matchs? Some of these parents are so rude that we ended up GRACIOUSLY giving up ALL of our seats to this team. Not one word of thanks, although they continued to talk about us as we went upstairs to film. Yeah snotty mom, we could hear you bad mouthing us. We were standing directly above you and could hear everything!

How about more. The next regional we went to, we had one team sitting in front of us and we were against them during this round. I knew that they would be excited and jumping up and down, so I went up stairs to the "media" table to film and one of the teams who were not only taking up the whole top row, but decided that they 'owned' the media table at the top of the stands for their scouting. When I asked if I could use the corner of the table ( for you geeks my mono pod base is 3/4" diameter) to put my mono pod on to film I get this attittude, "we need this area to scout. I am talking to these people, ( he points to the people in the top row)". Wow that was gracious. I was going to use the media area... for media. I graciously just moved somewhere else.

Let's continue. OK so the refs tell us that we have to fix our broken bumpers after we lost a wheel during competition and broke one of the bumpers trying to go over the hump with a lost wheel. We have a flurry of activity and we HAD to do some work across from our pits on the bumpers. Did it occur to the people on one of the teams that drove over my already broken toe with their robot to say I'm sorry when the saw me writhing in pain in the floor, nope. All I got from the last team member was, " you shouldn't have been in the isle". BTW this is the same team that pushed us out of stands at the other regional.

Frankly this type of stuff should cause a few of these teams to be immediately disqualified, period. NO discussion, pack up your crap and leave. Loose your qualifiying points, ban them from further competition for the year. Once a few of these teams get banned from a regional I think they will learn that gracious professionalism is part of First. If you can't handle it, First is going to penalize you.

Is this really the level that first has deteriorated too? I know some of us are really getting tired of this attitude and something needs to be done to address it in the PITS. Not tomorrow, not after some discussion on the off season, but right now, and at the next regional or state competition. Wake up First your plan is falling apart and being tarnished by these teams.

[DominickC]

Originally Posted by R3P0

Frankly this type of stuff should cause a few of these teams to be immediately disqualified, period. NO discussion, pack up your crap and leave. Loose your qualifiying points, ban them from further competition for the year. Once a few of these teams get banned from a regional I think they will learn that gracious professionalism is part of First. If you can't handle it, First is going to penalize you.

This.....this....

[Adam Freeman]

Originally Posted by 470-RBTX

I posted this on CD for a reason, yea I was frustrated with the team in question, but this was not meant to tarnish their image, If it was I wouldn't be here taking responsibility for my words.

I posted because I want to address the issue overall. As shown by the replies, this isn't an isolated incident. Adam showed how awesome he is with his apology and I really don't like to hold grudges, so I hope we can continue a successful relationship in the future, but this is just one experience. What about all the rest that get swept under the carpet?

At the end of the day we both got what we wanted. HOT won the comp, and we won the judges award, but their is still a goal yet to be obtained, and that is spreading the knowledge of how to handle these situations, and helping big name teams become more aware of how they come off to other teams.

Joe,

No offense taken. I will be honest the first time I read your OP, I was upset that you were imbellishing the issue. But, it took only a few minutes of thinking back on the issue to realize that we actually do a lot of the things you stated. And, most of it comes from me not communicating enough with my alliance partners. After that, I quickly decided that this was an excellent opportunity for learning for everyone.

I think both Chris and Ed have touched on an excellent topic....Qualification Alliance Strategy Meeting Etiquette. Who controls the strategy meeting? How do you approach teams with your strategy ideas? What happens when there are conflicting strategies?

I have been coaching HOT full time since 2009, and I can only remember 1 or 2 times where strategy discussions got really heated and I had to pull out the scouting data and say..."listen, you are not capable of doing what you are proposing". Other than that I like to think I stay open to teams being able to both complete the tasks we ask them to do and show off the skills of their machine. At least, I think that is the case, maybe not....

Maybe that should be a topic for a new thread. Anyway, just like Paul stated above....99% of these issues with high performing teams stem from miscommunication. The more we continue to talk to each other the better our FIRST community will be.

Thank you Joe for elevating this issue to all our attention.

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by R3P0

Shall I go on? How about the team that completely took over one part of the stands that our team had saved for the mentors and pit crew to come up in the stands to watch the matchs?


Let's continue. OK so the refs tell us that we have to fix our broken bumpers after we lost a wheel during competition and broke one of the bumpers trying to go over the hump with a lost wheel. We have a flurry of activity and we HAD to do some work across from our pits on the bumpers. Did it occur to the people on one of the teams that drove over my already broken toe with their robot to say I'm sorry when the saw me writhing in pain in the floor, nope. All I got from the last team member was, " you shouldn't have been in the isle". BTW this is the same team that pushed us out of stands at the other regional.

Frankly this type of stuff should cause a few of these teams to be immediately disqualified, period. NO discussion, pack up your crap and leave. Loose your qualifiying points, ban them from further competition for the year. Once a few of these teams get banned from a regional I think they will learn that gracious professionalism is part of First. If you can't handle it, First is going to penalize you.

I admittedly haven't been to a competition since 2010 but some of this stuff is ridiculous.

First, I don't know what regional or districts you compete at but I have never been to a competition that had extra seats in good locations to watch matches and have never been to one that did not clearly state that there is no saving of seats. I have been on the pit crew for many different teams at many different events and have often got to thae stands expecting to sit with my team only to find those seats taken. It isn't fun but there is no reserved seating so you just have to deal with it, find a seat (usually you can find a good one recently vacated by another teams pit crew), enjoy the match then back to work. As for the rude mother, their ar rude people every where, and every one with a team represents the team, that said I always urge people not to judge a team based on the family in the stands.

As for the second occurance. I agree, a simple I'm sorry would have been nice. That said you really should never be working in an area where there is robot traffic. The rules say all work should take place in your pit but I know that isn't always possible. When you need more space it is you're responsibility to ensure that you are out of the way of every one else. Again I don't know what regional you were at, and I definitely wasn't there but you really should have found an empty space, depending on your regional there are usually areas near the mobile machine shop (if available), near the practice field, or in the areas of the stands that cannot see the field (in stadium/arena venues).

I understand your frustration, regionals are stressful and running into rude people really can set you off, often against their whole team. That said in both your complaints against this team you were directly violating FIRST rules/guidelines (saving seats and working outside your pit) I know that both these things are common practice and I belive you guys were not doing it to hurt anyone else but if you want to make the other teams pack up their crap and leave and ban them from further competition you should probably take a close look at what your team is or isn't doing that is against the rules.

Originally Posted by R3P0

We ran into the same thing at one of the regionals this year. One of the lower numbered teams came to us and said "this is what you are going to do." I don't know about you, but as a mentor I spent time undoing what this does to a drive team when drivers from another team come over and TELL YOU what your team is going to do in a match.

This sucks, I know, I have bounced through quite a few high numbered teams, and it is not unheard of or even uncommon for a team to tell a team that is in their opinion less competitive what to do. However I have neve been in a situation where the other coach wouldn't atleast discuss. Two examples both while I was working with 3280 (I'll even give team numbers) 157 at WPI in 2010 the coach told me the strategy, justified using it because he "had more experience than our entire drive team" (he didn't) long story short, I convinced him we could win with defense while still allowing a lot of scoring. He finally gave in, we won, he apologized, we ended up picking them for eliminations and teamed up at another regional as well as two off seasons. The other was with 69, they told us their plan, they just wanted us to stay in the first zone and clean up balls, but not hang. Our mechanism was broken at WPI, the last they saw it, however we were confident we had fixed it and felt it was important for us to demonstrate it, they gave in, we hung, the next day they picked us first overall in alliance selections.

Some times the big teams will pusk you around a little but you need to see it from their perspective. I can;t tell you how many times in FRC and FTC I have been on a high seeded team and had another team explain their strategy or promise they could do something only to have it come out that they couldn't. If I am in a competitive position and you aren't than I fully expect to be allowed to make my own decisions.

The best example of this was at Championships in 2010, we were a very good first zone bot and hanger, we were seeded high from the beginning and in all strategy discussions said we would be the front bot, even if there was some one else who wanted to do it. If we knew we were best then we were doing it. We gave in only once and ended up having to climb the bumps to get to the front zone and clean up after the other team to win. In our experience the teams who gave us the least grief about being the first bot were the vetrans as they always came with the same analysis of how we play best. By the time we got to the end of the season we ended up picking 359 and 71 (two teams I would consider elite) in our division and they were both very receptive to our strategy ideas.

[N7UJJ]

I'm a little late in reading this thread, but I would like to make a couple of comments.

Originally Posted by mrmummert

First is about teaching students about Science, Math, Engineering and
Technology and how it can apply to a students future and how it applies in the real world.

inspiring, Recognizing, Changing the culture, Gracious Professionalism, cooperation: All phrases in the FIRST mantra.

FIRST is not an efficient program to TEACH skills or engineering or math knowledge. I don’t know anyone who gets college credit for FIRST participation or is allowed to skip Engineering 101 or Calculus 101. FIRST is about students working with positive adults who may (or may not) have engineering backgrounds, and as a result, more students realistically appreciate and perhaps enter a STEM field. That is the strength of FIRST. FIRST is uniquely effective in creating potential technological leaders who are persistant, ethical, competent, and positive role models. Mentors have a far grater responsibility then teacing tech skills.

The FIRST values are emphasized with FIRST’s highest award, the Chairman’s Award. The robot building and competing is just an activity to learn, appreciate and demonstrate the goals and values of FIRST. Being elite has little to do with winning the elimination rounds. Rather the character of the team. We all know fantastic teams who are very active in FIRST and have never won a regional competition. They are "changing the culture" and are the teams to emulate.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by R3P0

Shall I go on? How about the team that completely took over one part of the stands that our team had saved for the mentors and pit crew to come up in the stands to watch the matchs? Some of these parents are so rude that we ended up GRACIOUSLY giving up ALL of our seats to this team. Not one word of thanks, although they continued to talk about us as we went upstairs to film. Yeah snotty mom, we could hear you bad mouthing us. We were standing directly above you and could hear everything!

Parents who stick with FIRST teams are an odd problem. They obviously care about their kid and the team they are associated with but more opften than not do not care one bit about other teams. I do not think they realize the damage they cause the team's reputation with their territorial behavior but it's awkward to tell guest how to behave at an event when they are there for support and have not been around the team all season to understand how FIRST works. Maybe the team could make shirts for people who support the team without actually coming across as a member of the team so they cannot affect the team's public perception because it does matter.

[rick.oliver]

Originally Posted by N7UJJ

... FIRST is about students working with positive adults ..., and as a result, more students realistically appreciate and perhaps enter a STEM field. ...

I completely agree and I would add that modeling gracious behavior in a highly competitive environment is an important characteristic of a coach. No one is perfect; however, it has been my experience that the coaches from teams which are consistently highly competitive on the field have also consistently modeled gracious behavior.

I recall my first year coaching in 2005 at the Boilermaker Regional. We had the opportunity to be paired with a couple of the consistently successful teams. Our team leader advised me to ask those coaches what they needed us to do and to be honest about our capabilities. Without exception, their response was what can you do? They also communicated any particular needs or constraints which they had.

As has been stated already, communication is what is important – and I would qualify that as active listening. It goes both ways.

[avanboekel]

As a first time driver, I would just like to talk a little bit about my experiences at Midwest playing with powerhouse teams.

Our 2nd match of the day was with 148 Robowranglers. I'm glad we ended up playing with them as early as we did because our drive team learned a ton about strategy, and how to plan out a match. Their coach was extremely approachable, and was a pleasure to work with. He knew a bit about each team, and what they had done in their previous matches, making strategy planning a breeze (they must have a great scouting team). Everybody stuck to the plan, everybody contributed to the match, and we ended up winning handily. I would love to see them return to Midwest next year.

The same goes for pretty much every other team we worked with over the weekend (including 16 Bomb Squad, and 2949 Pwnage).

But long story short, you can't label all powerhouse teams as 'elitist'. This certainly isn't true for most teams.

[JaneYoung]

I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who has posted in this thread and helped to peel back the layers of what happens with coaches and drive teams and what some of the reasons are behind their thinking and decisions.

Realizing that many of the coaches of these teams are engineering types and don't always find that balance needed (see what I did there? ) in good communication, I especially appreciate the fact that many of you are taking the time to peel those layers back for the CD community. I think Adam set the tone for this to happen.

Jane

[IndySam]

This has been a great thread and I have posted it on our teams Facebook page for our team members to read.

[Mike Rush]

I've been at this for a while now. I started my FIRST "career" back in '97 -'98 as the lead mentor and coach of Team 64 - The Gila Monsters. I've been at many competitions pitted next to teams 68 - Truck Town Thunder, 67 - The HOT Team, 66 - The Flyers (although I don't remember them going by that name back them - I recall them having a Route 66 theme), and 65 - The Huskie Brigade and knew them all well.

Upon reading this thread I first though that Joel had (1) hit on a great topic and (2) plenty of guts to bring it up for discussion. After noticing he was from Ypsilanti, (I hate to admit it) but my initial thought was "it was the HOT Team" without any further inquiry. I admit I was initially a little biased but as it turned out, after the post by Adam (my compliments to you for your response) , I was correct.

The HOT Team is a great team and have been for a long time. They have the history to back up my assertion. Their accomplishments are impressive and I applaud their record. However, they also (and always have) acted as if they knew it. This is not a new impression for anyone who has been around a long time and was readily apparent from this fellow GM sponsored team member from a facility with close business relationships with the one sponsoring the HOT Team.

President Theodore Roosevelt made the proverb "Speak softly and carry a big stick" notable during the first part of the 20th century. I suggest those words are just as poignant today... Let your record be your (really) big stick and your actions on and off the field speak softly.

I hope this thread and my admission of a long time impression of The HOT Team will help them to try to put forth a more softly spoken impression of themselves.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Mike Rush

I've been at this for a while now. I started my FIRST "career" back in '97 -'98 as the lead mentor and coach of Team 64 - The Gila Monsters. I've been at many competitions pitted next to teams 68 - Truck Town Thunder, 67 - The HOT Team, 66 - The Flyers (although I don't remember them going by that name back them - I recall them having a Route 66 theme), and 65 - The Huskie Brigade and knew them all well.

Upon reading this thread I first though that Joel had (1) hit on a great topic and (2) plenty of guts to bring it up for discussion. After noticing he was from Ypsilanti, (I hate to admit it) but my initial thought was "it was the HOT Team" without any further inquiry. I admit I was initially a little biased but as it turned out, after the post by Adam (my compliments to you for your response) , I was correct.

The HOT Team is a great team and have been for a long time. They have the history to back up my assertion. Their accomplishments are impressive and I applaud their record. However, they also (and always have) acted as if they knew it. This is not a new impression for anyone who has been around a long time and was readily apparent from this fellow GM sponsored team member from a facility with close business relationships with the one sponsoring the HOT Team.

President Theodore Roosevelt made the proverb "Speak softly and carry a big stick" notable during the first part of the 20th century. I suggest those words are just as poignant today... Let your record be your (really) big stick and your actions on and off the field speak softly.

I hope this thread and my admission of a long time impression of The HOT Team will help them to try to put forth a more softly spoken impression of themselves.

I like them HOT, as opposed to Lukewarm.

[aspiece]

Originally Posted by Ekcrbe

The saddest thing about this incident is that I knew exactly which competition this was, I was there, and I knew exactly which team you were referring to without checking the match schedule or reading what Adam Freeman had to say. I haven't been in an alliance station driving with them, but from seeing them around the stands and elsewhere at competitions (both of ours this year), they have come off as slightly above everyone else. I can't speak to the merit of the individuals on the team in a vacuum, but as a whole I was less than thrilled. I have little doubt that the people themselves are are class individuals.

I would like to mention that this is not the opinion of T3 at all. As team leader of FIRST Team 68, I found HOT an excellent alliance partner as well as an excellent opponent to cooperate with. They were gracious to us in situations during the day and we appreciate the level of focus and aggressiveness they bring to competition. They are an example to other teams as to how to be graciously professional as well as extremely competitive at the same time. I believe they exemplify the true meaning of the FIRST Robotics Competition and we look forward to competing with and against them in the future. They were even patient with our team when we tried to but a wrench in their strategy. We were impressed in their ability to see this coming.

It is the nature of competitiveness to try to beat the number one seed. We appreciate what HOT brings to the field.

Thank you Adam for addressing all of these issues on the topic and we look forward to competing with and against you again. Our team shares a common philosophy that with other teams: "When you lose, you say nothing. when you win you say even less." I plan to use HOT as a great example of this for my team at our meeting tomorrow.

By the way, did you guys find a button on your toolbox? We left you a souvenir.

[Adam Freeman]

Originally Posted by Mike Rush

However, they also (and always have) acted as if they knew it.
...

I hope this thread and my admission of a long time impression of The HOT Team will help them to try to put forth a more softly spoken impression of themselves.

Mike,

I can asure you that, at least since I started on the HOT team in 2005, that our intention was always to "speak softly and carry a big stick". I am not sure what happened before that, but I know we (mentors) stress to the students before every competition that they need to be on their best behavior, help anyone that needs it, cheer wildly for all teams, stand and clap during awards, etc...

As discussed previously, sometime our perception of reality is not alway the same as someone elses. So we will take this information and continue to improve.

Originally Posted by aspiece

I would like to mention that this is not the opinion of T3 at all. As team leader of FIRST Team 68, I found HOT an excellent alliance partner as well as an excellent opponent to cooperate with. They were gracious to us in situations during the day and we appreciate the level of focus and aggressiveness to competition that they bring. They are an example to other teams as to how to be graciously professional as well as extremely competitive at the same time. I believe they exemplify the true meaning of the FIRST Robotics Competition and look forward to competing with and against them in the future. They were even patient with our team when we tried to but a wrench in their strategy and called us out on it. We were impressed in their ability to see this coming and appreciate the patience they had when the called us on it.

Thank you! I was a little surprised to see that comment from a student from Truck Town, but I never thought it represented the entire team. I know we have always had a close relationship between the mentors, since we are always right next to each other in the pits. I was hoping that we hadn't done something to hurt that relationship.

Actually, out of all the teams HOT currently has such an incredible link to 68, 548, and 3098 between family members and former mentors and/or students... it's awesome to attend events when these teams are also attending. It's like a family reunion at some of these FiM events.

Anyways, I know we kind of stepped on each others toes during practice matches, with both of us trying to get our Hybrid modes working. I was hoping that wasn't an issue.

I had no problem with the stuff about the Coopertition bridge. I understand the strategy and why your alliance would have wanted you guys to continue to score and balance. My biggest worry is if teams start to not want to coop balance with us at all.

Thank you to everyone that has commented and supported our team. We really appreciate it.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Our experiences with 67, both as partners and opponents, have always been positive.

There have been a lot of good points made in this thread. I particularly agree with Adam Freeman about the need for a separate thread about Qualification Match etiquette vs. Elimination Round etiquette. I have a rather strong opinion about elimination rounds - the captain has final say on strategy and tactics. For qualifications rounds I'm still not quite sure what the proper etiquette is. We try to come in with a well reasoned plan, and usually our alliance partners go along. When there are different opinions, I'm never sure how hard I should push, or when I should shut up and agree to something I'm not fully on-board with. A lot of it depends on who you are talking to, and sometimes you have different ways of looking at things or different short term priorities. Regardless, we always do our best to start with some plan and follow it as best we can (say what you'll do and do what you say).

Also, its a different world behind the glass. I urge everbody to take any perceived insult or perceived intentional deviations from the plan with a grain of salt.