Elitist Teams

[JesseK]

If there are too many things on a coach's mind, then really it may boil down to a simple lack of focus rather than an affront by a so-called 'eilite' team. If Adam is spread thin and unable to focus on what he's good at during events, he needs to learn to delegate more .

[CoachPoore]

1519 has been fortunate enough to play both with and against the HOT team several times in the past. I have nothing but good memories of doing both. As an alliance partner, they are knowledgable, constructive and co-operative and a lot of fun to play with. Adam's response to this thread seems typical of a classy team. We look forward to more matches with 67, especially the chance to be at the same end of the field

Noel

[Ekcrbe]

I would like to apologize for some of the things I said previously. I was upset about some other things, and I made some comments that I regret. I don't have a sufficient sample size to draw any conclusions, so I am sorry if I offended anyone, especially Adam Freeman, who has been very honorable in standing up to this situation.

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman

I was a little surprised to see that comment from a student from Truck Town, but I never thought it represented the entire team. I know we have always had a close relationship between the mentors, since we are always right next to each other in the pits. I was hoping that we hadn't done something to hurt that relationship.

I would like to apologize again and note that this is not my personal opinion either, but something that came out of anger from a mental lapse from an unrelated incident, and I am very sorry that I may have hurt the perception of Truck Town in the eyes of HOT. I can assure you that our view of you has not been tainted by a recent occurrence.

So, once again, for what it's worth, I am very sorry about my comments and any and all drama or misunderstandings brought about by them. I fully understand if you do not feel like you can accept my apology.

[Adam Freeman]

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink

Our experiences with 67, both as partners and opponents, have always been positive.

I will put this out there for everyone. We are by no means perfect. At times during a competition watching matches and evaluating teams, we make comments that are not always positive. We are obviously always evaluating teams on their performance and ability to execute a logical strategy.

When I see a match were six teams have no plan in place or any strategy to succeed, I tend to make comments about it to my teammates. When a team should single balance for the win, and instead messes around trying to double balance...I get upset.

Most of the time, there are other teams that can hear us. I am sure they are thinking that we are making these statements because we think we are better than the teams on the field.

I wish we could help every team get better both with their machine and strategy. This would make our job much easier in strategy discussions...and playing matches much more fun. Our team loves offense....so a 100 to 99 victory, would be (although extremely stressful) very awesome! This is why I love playing on Einstein and at IRI. The level of play is so high, it's amazing!

Anyway, I figure I should put those imperfections out there for everyone to balance all the positive comments...before someone else come on here and states that they have experienced us being elitists in some way.

One of my favorite things to do it to show up to competitions we are not at and try to help other teams with strategy tips or advice from what I have seen while watching matches. If a team wants my advice great, if not no problem either.

[Adam Freeman]

Originally Posted by JesseK

If there are too many things on a coach's mind, then really it may boil down to a simple lack of focus rather than an affront by a so-called 'eilite' team. If Adam is spread thin and unable to focus on what he's good at during events, he needs to learn to delegate more .

Jesse,

Yeah I am pretty sure that may be the case.

I am pretty much a control freak... so even though we have good people working on scouting and pick list, I am still up the night before scouring through data and formulating my own list.

What I haven't brought up is, Saturday morning we were having a heated debate about which team we were going to select if we did indeed seed #1. So when I probably should have been discussing strategy in a timely manner for this match in question. I was in the stands watching the one or two of the top 4 teams on our list play their matches too.

Delegation is not my strong suit. Just ask the guys that work for me....

[JaneYoung]

As far as I know, it is the members of CD who have decided to use the term, Elitist. I don't know that it has been the teams calling themselves that. I'm not sure we're doing ourselves a favor by usually that term or by throwing it around in a casual manner. It does little to help us understand the caliber of the teams that are being called, Elitist.

I haven't finished thinking through that thought, myself, but I know there is a whole lot more to teams that are members of the Hall of Fame as well as robot competition Champions on a world class level. The direction that I'm headed with this line of thinking is towards the level of responsibility that goes with that incredible success, using Gracious Professionalism and Coopertition as guideposts. By using them as guideposts, it keeps all of us aware of who we are and what we are fighting for. Oh, ok... change fighting to striving: what we are striving for.

Jane

[aspiece]

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman

Anyways, I know we kind of stepped on each others toes during practice matches, with both of us trying to get our Hybrid modes working. I was hoping that wasn't an issue.

No not at all, I need to better prepare my students and myself to advocate for what we need.

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman

I had no problem with the stuff about the Coopertition bridge. I understand the strategy and why your alliance would have wanted you guys to continue to score and balance. My biggest worry is if teams start to not want to coop balance with us at all.

We would have never even considered it if the other team hadn't cooperated with you numerous times before. Any team would be crazy not to cooperate with your team this year.

Can't wait to compete with 67 soon.

[hounvs]

Originally Posted by rcmolloy

So even though you had a bad run in with this team, give them a second chance. I'm sure they would love to play with you guys again.

I'm a rookie on 470 but I've been on another team before. I've experience this with the same team and have seen them do it to other teams as well. They don't deserve a second chance, they deserve to be banned from FIRST or otherwise chastised for their blatant disregard of gracious professionalism.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by hounvs

I'm a rookie on 470 but I've been on another team before. I've experience this with the same team and have seen them do it to other teams as well. They don't deserve a second chance, they deserve to be banned from FIRST or otherwise chastised for their blatant disregard of gracious professionalism.

You think a Championship Chairman's winning team should be banned from FIRST?

I suggest you re-evaluate your position, as it is thoroughly untenable.

[CoachPoore]

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink

Our experiences with 67, both as partners and opponents, have always been positive.

There have been a lot of good points made in this thread. I particularly agree with Adam Freeman about the need for a separate thread about Qualification Match etiquette vs. Elimination Round etiquette. I have a rather strong opinion about elimination rounds - the captain has final say on strategy and tactics. For qualifications rounds I'm still not quite sure what the proper etiquette is. We try to come in with a well reasoned plan, and usually our alliance partners go along. When there are different opinions, I'm never sure how hard I should push, or when I should shut up and agree to something I'm not fully on-board with. A lot of it depends on who you are talking to, and sometimes you have different ways of looking at things or different short term priorities. Regardless, we always do our best to start with some plan and follow it as best we can (say what you'll do and do what you say).

Also, its a different world behind the glass. I urge everbody to take any perceived insult or perceived intentional deviations from the plan with a grain of salt.

Wayne

I agree that it can be hard to know how hard to push for "your" strategy in qualification matches, especially if you feel that your own strategy is more firmly anchored in good scouting, a realistic assessment of robot capabilities and how to play that year's game. One issue we ran into last year was that in our opinion the best way to maximize alliance score was to not have all three robots trying to score tubes, but of course everyone wants their team to see their robot scoring tubes. Working out how hard to push on this point was challenging. Especially when you think a match will be close, getting the balance right between the strategy most likely to give the alliance a win vs making everyone on the alliance happy about their robot's role on the field can be difficult.

It is indeed a different world behind the glass, both for coaches and students. We have two young ladies as driver and operator this year who are both going to be majoring in piano performance at college next year. I'm convinced that their experience of performing in front of other people is an asset to our drive team, something I hadn't really considered before they started driving.

Noel

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by hounvs

I'm a rookie on 470 but I've been on another team before. I've experience this with the same team and have seen them do it to other teams as well. They don't deserve a second chance, they deserve to be banned from FIRST or otherwise chastised for their blatant disregard of gracious professionalism.

And you suggesting they be banned fits your definition of Gracious Professionalism? Did you not read any of this thread? Adam has apologized and explained his position in every way possible barring another language, and you still feel the need to talk trash about them?

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by hounvs

I'm a rookie on 470 but I've been on another team before. I've experience this with the same team and have seen them do it to other teams as well. They don't deserve a second chance, they deserve to be banned from FIRST or otherwise chastised for their blatant disregard of gracious professionalism.

I didn't post anything in this thread because I've never had issues with elite teams, but dude you are out of line.

Adam's apology and responses in this thread have been amazing yet you turn around and spit this right back. Think before you post up again and actually read what he has to say. Don't just be mad and call it a day.

To the OP- thanks for this discussion
Adam- thanks for your extremely well thought out and worded responses, they were actually inspirational.

[Mike Rush]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Adam- thanks for your extremely well thought out and worded responses, they were actually inspirational.

I agree. Even though my earlier comments were critical but (hopefully) constructive, Adam took them and stated that his intention was to continuously improve... an admirable goal all around!

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by Adam Freeman

Anyway, I figure I should put those imperfections out there for everyone to balance all the positive comments...before someone else come on here and states that they have experienced us being elitists in some way.

I want to jump on the bandwagon a little with Adam here. I know I've said things on competition weekends that I've thought back on and tought to myself, "I wish I handled that differently". Almost always, the situation involves being pressed for time so I say something that in my mind is perfectly logical, but from someone else's perspective that is not in my mind and doesn't see my whole train of thought that lead to that statement, it probably sounds mean/rude/or something else negative.

A great example happened in Detroit last week. I think it was Saturday morning, but it might have been late Friday afternoon. Anyway, a lot of matches have been played by this point.

Our team needed to do an adjustment to the shooter on the practice field between matches. As always, time was tight and the practice field was busy. As soon as we got the adjustment done, the team needed to run to the match queue so I volunteered to clean up at the practice field and return things to the pits (ethernet cables, laptop, etc.).

As I was tidying up, a couple of students from a rookie team came up to me and asked "we're in an upcoming match with you. Can we balance the coopertition bridge?"

I said something like, "so, you're our opponents, right?" (As background, in all of the qulifying matches we've played this year (24 thus far) we've been the designated coop bridge balancer in all but one match. I assumed if someone was coming to us to talk about the coop bridge, it was an opponent.)

One of the students said, "no, we're your partner."

At this point I thought: if they're suggesting that they do the balancing, then they must be really good at it. Afterall, we had balanced successfully in all but one match at that competition. I thought "great - this will allow us to score a little more and balance the team bridge. It will help us get the 4 QPs."

With the above in mind, I said something like. "Cool. How many times have you done it, and how many times were you successful?"

The student then looked a little sheepish and said, "well, this will be the first time. In fact, our robot still hasn't really played yet."

To this I said something like, "Well, in that case, I'm sorry but I'd have to say no. We're ranked in the top 3 right now and the coopertition bridge is a key part of our strategy." And then I think I got up and left.

I can't remember if I said any more to soften the blow or not, but probably not. I remember being in a hurry since the reason I was alone on the practice field was that our team had to rush to the queue for a match and I really didn't want to miss the match. My mind was thinking of many different things at that time, and how to be tactful in a delicate situation was probably well down my mental priority list at that time. Just after it happened, I didn't think much of it. However, later on I thought back to it and I started thinking, "Maybe I didn't say the right things there. Did I come off as a jerk?" Unfortunately, my memory of the situation was a little blurry so there's a good chance I wasn't thinking straight and I didn't handle the situation very well.

Looking back on it, the students probably thought I was one of those veteran team jerks. To be honest, I wouldn't blame them if they thought that. I would like to think that most of the people that know me think I'm a pretty nice guy. But if I get wrapped up in something else while you're trying to get my attention, then I probably may not come off so well.

Unfortunately, you only get one chance to make a first impression. Hopefully, someone on a team gives you a bad first impression, give them another chance. A lot of times someone's mind is off in another place at a competition and they may not be their normal self at that time.

The only saving grace for me with that team is that I was helping them from Friday afternoon through Saturday morning getting parts of their robot working. Although, their team probably thinks I'm two different people. Something like, "Not all of those 51 guys are bad. That guy that helped us get the compressor going was nice - not like that jerk from the practice field that you told me about."

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I didn't post anything in this thread because I've never had issues with elite teams, but dude you are out of line.

Adam's apology and responses in this thread have been amazing yet you turn around and spit this right back. Think before you post up again and actually read what he has to say. Don't just be mad and call it a day.

To the OP- thanks for this discussion
Adam- thanks for your extremely well thought out and worded responses, they were actually inspirational.

Originally Posted by P.J.

And you suggesting they be banned fits your definition of Gracious Professionalism? Did you not read any of this thread? Adam has apologized and explained his position in every way possible barring another language, and you still feel the need to talk trash about them?

Originally Posted by Cory

You think a Championship Chairman's winning team should be banned from FIRST?

I suggest you re-evaluate your position, as it is thoroughly untenable.

So, a little off-topic, but something I want to address anyways:

The kid said they were a rookie. Cut them some slack. Instead of publicly shaming them, send them a message that isn't so harsh and explain to them why you think their post was uncalled for.

I'd hate to see someone be shunned and turned off to CD because they stuck their foot in their mouth (because then I'd be half the person I am now... the only reason I kept coming back is cause I'm stubborn).

EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that they have been on another team. Although they should know better, there are better ways to show them the error in their ways. I've said some dumb things before on this forum, some that I have been severely scolded for and other that have been handled in a less harsh manner. I know which ones I had grown more from, with clear understanding where I went wrong and why I should think differently.


****

HOT/Adam, very graceful replies. I hope that I one day can take criticism as gracefully as you.