Go to Post Until we learn to celebrate our differences with great vigor in an earnest way, we won't accomplish what we're supposed to get done. - Rich Kressly [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Electrical
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2012, 21:32
Jagbots(Mark) Jagbots(Mark) is offline
Registered User
FRC #2929 (Jagbots)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Puyallup, Washington
Posts: 6
Jagbots(Mark) is an unknown quantity at this point
Is our cRIO toast?

Team Jagbots, 2929, could use some help in troubleshooting our cRIO.

In our regional this last weekend (Cascade in Seattle) we made it to the second round of quarterfinals without a hitch but lost communications during it. We took a voltometer to the robot and found that it was getting power all the way up to the cRIO, but something internal must have been causing a problem. The cRIO's power button did not light.

We confirmed this in several ways:
-Flipped the safety mode dipswitch on the cRIO
-Checked if the cRIO received 24v power (checked for current above and below connector)
-Vacummed metal filings and checked for shorts

So before we have an expert crack open our cRIO, what exactly should we test to make sure our cRIO can be repaired, has anyone had a problem like this?
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2012, 21:38
Johnny_5's Avatar
Johnny_5 Johnny_5 is offline
Whose cooking motor?
AKA: Isaac
FRC #3484 (Short Circuit)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Marysville Ohio
Posts: 150
Johnny_5 has a spectacular aura aboutJohnny_5 has a spectacular aura about
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

We had that issue and we just opened our cRIO up and blew out all of the swarf inside of it.

And then to prevent this from happening later we installed the gasket kit that came with it inside of the case and on the connection pins.
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2012, 21:44
Mark McLeod's Avatar
Mark McLeod Mark McLeod is offline
Just Itinerant
AKA: Hey dad...Father...MARK
FRC #0358 (Robotic Eagles)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Hauppauge, Long Island, NY
Posts: 8,905
Mark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

I'm with Issac.
If it's an 8-slot cRIO, then I'd clean it out first.
There's a very real possibility that metal dust & debris has worked it's way inside the cRIO and is causing intermittent shorts. You fix that by carefully opening and following directions to clean out the cRIO case. They are pretty tough birds and usually don't suffer lasting damage from that.

If that doesn't help then it might still be under warranty (I think three years from being shipped from NI). In any case NI support is only a toll-free call away.
(866) 275-6964 from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. Central Time, Monday-Friday
__________________
"Rationality is our distinguishing characteristic - it's what sets us apart from the beasts." - Aristotle

Last edited by Mark McLeod : 27-03-2012 at 22:39.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2012, 21:49
tsaksa's Avatar
tsaksa tsaksa is offline
Registered User
FRC #0997 (CHS Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Corvallis Oregon
Posts: 203
tsaksa has a reputation beyond reputetsaksa has a reputation beyond reputetsaksa has a reputation beyond reputetsaksa has a reputation beyond reputetsaksa has a reputation beyond reputetsaksa has a reputation beyond reputetsaksa has a reputation beyond reputetsaksa has a reputation beyond reputetsaksa has a reputation beyond reputetsaksa has a reputation beyond reputetsaksa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagbots(Mark) View Post
So before we have an expert crack open our cRIO, what exactly should we test to make sure our cRIO can be repaired, has anyone had a problem like this?
I would contact National Instruments directly and ask them what to do next. I believe there is a fuse inside the CRIO and there is a chance that your problem is as simple as replacing a blown fuse. However NI may ask that you do not open the CRIO yourself. After all the CRIO is a sophisticated piece of industrial equipment. In the past the NI folks have been quite helpful to FIRST teams so if it were me I would call first and do what they recommend.
__________________
This is the zeroth day of the rest of your life.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2012, 21:50
PayneTrain's Avatar
PayneTrain PayneTrain is offline
no
AKA: Lizard King
FRC #0422 (The Meme Tech Pneumatic Devices)
Team Role: Mascot
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: RVA
Posts: 2,274
PayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

When we killed off all of our cRIOs for some unexplained reason, we had a mentor and his friend break them open and check out the problem. If you are running inefficient code, you can make your cRIO draw enough current to cut out a fuse inside of it (at least, this was our problem. Seeing as there are many intricate parts inside of every cRIO chassis, your mileage may vary). We had the problem fixed on both the hardware and software ends, and we put in a far more cost-effective in-line fuse to the cRIO that will kill the power before the juice gets to the cRIO.

I would say crack it open if the NI Troubleshooting still leaves you with a brick.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2012, 22:24
DonRotolo's Avatar
DonRotolo DonRotolo is offline
Back to humble
FRC #0832
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 7,019
DonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

Definitely call NI first. They were extremely helpful when ours had the exact same symptom 2 years ago. They ended up replacing the fuse for free (not easily replaced BTW) and getting it back to us in under a week.
__________________

I am N2IRZ - What's your callsign?
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2012, 22:55
andreboos andreboos is offline
Registered User
FRC #3021 (The Agency)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 132
andreboos is a jewel in the roughandreboos is a jewel in the roughandreboos is a jewel in the roughandreboos is a jewel in the rough
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PayneTrain View Post
If you are running inefficient code, you can make your cRIO draw enough current to cut out a fuse inside of it (at least, this was our problem.
Could you elaborate on this? I'm baffled as to how inefficient code would result in blowing a fuse (on the cRIO).
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-03-2012, 23:28
PayneTrain's Avatar
PayneTrain PayneTrain is offline
no
AKA: Lizard King
FRC #0422 (The Meme Tech Pneumatic Devices)
Team Role: Mascot
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: RVA
Posts: 2,274
PayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

It was some muttering from the programmers about how the draw from jaguars while the robot was driving probably cause the cRIO to go out of control.

Seeing as I just wire the board together for them with some juniors and check over the boards (the mentor and I never found a problem with it), that's what they went for. However, it could have just been any one bad component causing some vicious chain reaction.

I do remember a hastened backup plan to do a demonstration at a public event and a lot of salty words more vividly than the root of the problem we had to solve... oh well :/
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2012, 14:29
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 9,113
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

By the way, the fuse being mentioned here is an important feature to protect the cRIO from faulty wiring. It typically opens due to high current making its way through the cRIO's power return. This can happen in several ways, some involving current flowing through the robot frame.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2012, 23:19
MAldridge's Avatar
MAldridge MAldridge is offline
Lead Programmer
AKA: Rube #1
FRC #0418 (LASA Robotics)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Austin
Posts: 117
MAldridge will become famous soon enoughMAldridge will become famous soon enough
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

I would also say to crack the case and vacuum; in many cases that will solve your problem. Then you should get a null modem cable and see if it outputs anything. Just hook up with a console (9600,8,n,1) and look to see if it boots at all. Even if it doesn't output anything intelligent, note if it outputs anything. If it doesn't output anything at all, I would say it's the fuse, at which point I would see if it is under warranty as those are a real pain to replace.
__________________
'Why are you a programer?' --Team Captain
'Because the robot isn't complicated enough!' --Me
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2012, 23:52
Peck's Avatar
Peck Peck is offline
worse then failing: proving murphy
FRC #1619 (Up-A-Creek Robotics) and FTC # 4633)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 237
Peck will become famous soon enough
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAldridge View Post
I would also say to crack the case and vacuum; in many cases that will solve your problem.
first off, by cracking, he doesn't mean cause a crack in the case (making sure that nobody [*cough* software *cough*] gets that idea) he means make a small opening at a connection point (take the screws out)

Second: they already vacuumed it.
__________________
Cad, Electrical, Machining, Debugging (old school), PR, Distraction elimination


TEAM 1619
__UP-A-Creek Robotics__
It ain't done till it's over-done
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 30-03-2012, 00:00
MAldridge's Avatar
MAldridge MAldridge is offline
Lead Programmer
AKA: Rube #1
FRC #0418 (LASA Robotics)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Austin
Posts: 117
MAldridge will become famous soon enoughMAldridge will become famous soon enough
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

I assumed that no one would try to actually crack a metal case...

I go by that you can never vacuum enough, and there is always a possibility that something didn't get all the way clean. I would say that if it doesn't output anything on console, its a fuse.
__________________
'Why are you a programer?' --Team Captain
'Because the robot isn't complicated enough!' --Me
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 30-03-2012, 00:11
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 9,113
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

I'd say that if the cRIO's power LED doesn't light when 24 volts is applied to the proper pins, it's not likely to be sending anything out the console port.
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 30-03-2012, 14:27
nighterfighter nighterfighter is offline
1771 Alum, 1771 Mentor
AKA: Matt B
FRC #1771 (1771)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Suwanee/Kennesaw, GA
Posts: 835
nighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant future
Re: Is our cRIO toast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PayneTrain View Post
It was some muttering from the programmers about how the draw from jaguars while the robot was driving probably cause the cRIO to go out of control.

Seeing as I just wire the board together for them with some juniors and check over the boards (the mentor and I never found a problem with it), that's what they went for. However, it could have just been any one bad component causing some vicious chain reaction.

I do remember a hastened backup plan to do a demonstration at a public event and a lot of salty words more vividly than the root of the problem we had to solve... oh well :/
I don't think it is possible for the code to force excess current to go through the cRIO. The PD block controls all of that...
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:59.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi