Tips for Team Promotion to Scouts

[dellagd]

It seems you guys continue to talk about how well your robot preforms to other teams in order to have a better chance of being picked. How would we go about doing this in a way that doesnt sound like "PICK ME PICK ME" or isnt awkward or anything?

It seems like "You should pick us because ~~~~" Would be a little bit of a bad thing to just put out there. Any help?

[Donut]

Originally Posted by dellagd

It seems you guys continue to talk about how well your robot preforms to other teams in order to have a better chance of being picked. How would we go about doing this in a way that doesnt sound like "PICK ME PICK ME" or isnt awkward or anything?

It seems like "You should pick us because ~~~~" Would be a little bit of a bad thing to just put out there. Any help?

I've never liked the idea of "cold calling" teams in their pit so to speak, since to me it always comes across exactly as you stated. I think the better option is to have that kind of information available in your pit if a team stops by and asks about how your robot is performing (and if they're coming by they probably have some interest in picking you). Also team members making friends with other teams helps since there is sometimes informal discussion of "how are you guys doing so far?", and the person you talk to may mention some of those comments to the scouting group later. Last year we had one team we elevated on our pick list after a student mentioned that team xxxx had fixed their arm issues and put up a full row of middle tubes on Saturday (this was despite a 2-8 record or so). Checking the scouting data again confirmed they were performing much better, and the only reason we didn't pick them was that we ended up getting selected by a team above us and there was another team high on our list that they also wanted to select.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by dellagd

It seems you guys continue to talk about how well your robot preforms to other teams in order to have a better chance of being picked. How would we go about doing this in a way that doesnt sound like "PICK ME PICK ME" or isnt awkward or anything?

It seems like "You should pick us because ~~~~" Would be a little bit of a bad thing to just put out there. Any help?

I much prefer teams that say: "we believe you should see us [do something] because we think we'd be a great compliment for your [some skill]. We're playing in match [number], please take a look!" This shows they're paying attention to your skills and the strategic implications of the entire event, and (most importantly) are willing and able to demonstrate their skills.

Unlike most teams, I am the mentor for both strategy management and pit work, so I am in the pit a lot when scouts come by. However, I pay zero attention to pick-me flyers or pitches that come without proof. There's just no time for sorting out the truth without the offer to demonstrate. If I know/have noticed the team already or am asked to watch them for something specific in a subsequent match, that's much more valuable.

[LeadU2Fun]

I hear everyone saying perform on the field. I think the problem was if you are "on the bubble" as someone stated then you might be overlooked. Also, I take to heart the suggestion to be highly distinguishable from other teams. I've heard that we were actually wanted for an alliance but our number was similar to others and we were confused with someone else. Completely different functioning robots. Because our team is small we are working on strategies so people know not only who we are but which robot is ours. I think this is where aesthetics come into the design that some teams don't think about. Especially important when "on the bubble". I also like the idea of a communication board in the pit educating people about your bot. Thank you for all the feedback. We are starting to build a business plan for next year based on your gracious professionalism.

[ToddF]

Let's assume your goal is to be in the elimination matches.

There are three ways to get there. 1) Win enough matches so your ranking makes you an alliance captain. 2) Perform well enough on the field so your performance makes you an attractive second pick. Second picks usually are decent "primary" scorers. 3) Become a third pick due to your outstanding secondary characteristics. In this year's game, this is probably going to be ability to balance and ability to play effective defense against fender bots.

Notice that marketing has almost nothing to do with the first two ways of getting to the elims. It is all about performance on the field. When you are marketing your robot, you are primarily trying to effect the possibility of your team being a third pick.

To do effective marketing, you need clearly identify your target market, and you need to effectively communicate the right message. In this case, your target market is/are the decision makers on the two better teams who have the power to decide to pick you. Since you cannot know ahead of time exactly which teams these will be, market to all the teams. I saw this mentioned in just one other post, but it bears repeating: Be sure you are directing your communications to the right person or persons. The people who are going to be making the pick lists are probably not in the pits. They are in the stands doing scouting. If you are trying to sell your team, and are walking from pit to pit doing so, your first question should be, "Can I speak with a member of your scouting team?" If there is no one in the pit from scouting, ask for a name, and go find that person in the stands. Communicating the right message to the wrong person is not effective marketing.

Next, you need to communicate the right message. Remember who your target market is. You are not trying to sell your "primary" scoring ability. If you were a steller scorer, you would be one of the two teams doing the picking, not one of the many hoping to be picked. Your performance on the field would have achieved this already. Rather, emphasize the qualities that will distinguish you from the rest of the mid-pack robots.

The most effective marketing strategy I can think of would be to track down the mentor and student in charge of making the pick list for each team. Place in their hands a flyer. The most important thing on the flyer is a huge picture of your robot, so they will see it and remember to watch for it on the field. Under that, list the qualities that make you an attractive third pick.

Just for the fun of it, here is a flier for our team. (Look for us at the North Carolina Regional.)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-y...%2520flier.gif

[remulasce]

It's not a bad flier, but even that is too much self-promotion for a scout to take seriously. As you said, the picture is the most important thing, but that picture doesn't tell a scout what he wants to know. Better would be shots of the drivetrain, the "high traction wheels" themselves, and the bridge manipulator. A scout does not trust your declaration of "no penalties", "bridge manipulator works", "can drive over balls to balance", and will not have faith in your drivers' years if it is not evident on the field. What he might do, however, is look at a team number on his pick list as he attempts to rank it, and wonder exactly what that robot /has/. Conventional scouting is good at figuring out how well a robot performs, but it's a bit harder to judge the overall quality of construction, how likely it is to fail, etc. That's why a scout would like a picture of your bridge lowering device: Is it a wimpy pneumatic piston, or is it a beast of aluminum? Does it look taped together? That's the sort of thing that he can use to place your robot above the near-identically-performing next one. Otherwise, your only option is to just do better.

[LeadU2Fun]

If anyone wants to see how OPR and QP points can vary here is the comparisons in an excel file from the Arizona regional:

Just click "Login as Guest" to get it.

Granted having scouts record more specifics based only on individual team statistics is a better measurement tool.

P.S. Just wanted to congratulate 498 and 2486 on their awesome scouting!

[ToddF]

Originally Posted by remulasce

It's not a bad flier, but even that is too much self-promotion for a scout to take seriously.

Our head coach said pretty much the same thing when he saw it. Our actual team policy is to do little to no self promotion at all. We scout others based on what happens on the field, not what they say they can do, and expect others to scout us the same way.

It seems that the gist of the thread is that aggressive marketing is at best ineffective, and at worst off-putting. So, (speaking as a relative newcomer to the FIRST scene) why do so many teams do it? It seems like it must have been effective for someone at some point in time, or the practice would have died out. Or is it a case of newcomers seeing people doing something that seems like a good idea, and copying them, even though it's not? (Like shouting "Robot!")

[remulasce]

Right. The best you can hope for, I think, is to be helpful. If you are performing as well on paper as teams with wimpy drivetrains, but your drivetrain is really a beast that hasn't had opportunity to show its true potential, you can help other teams' scouts out by giving them pictures of your drivetrain. They should (hopefully) be able to tell a solid drivetrain when they see one. But if you have the exact same robot as everybody else on the field, there's not much you can do.

[LeadU2Fun]

I know you will probably tell me this is the exception but when you balance on a coop bridge with a high seed alliance and they want to pick you but confuse you with a similar team number that tipped when trying to balance, there's a problem. You are saying to rely on their scouting. I say we didn't distinguish ourselves enough. There were good suggestions in here for doing that. Making our "uniforms" and robot's aesthetics recognizable, showing pictures (should have printed the picture of us balancing and given it to them), something to bring attention to robot when it accomplishes a function, pit board with key important aspects, etc. would all help do this.

[SamMullen]

In the competition this year, a lot of the second pick robots come down to teams that A have a good hybrid program or B have good triple balancing capabilities (a wide base, a small robot base, a balance assistance mechanism). These capabilities are incredibly important, but for the triple balance capabilities at least, may not be revealed during the qualifying matches. If you think that your robot could easily be part of a triple balance, don't just tell someone that, show them. Get out onto the field on Thursday during practice matches and attempt to triple balance. On Friday, if you still aren't being courted, get together with a high ranked team you want to be with, go to the practice field and triple balance with them.

956 in Portland was seeded 40th, had an OPR of 1.8, which gave them the OPR rank of 48th. By most scouting metrics, they were not a great team. But because of good scouting- scouting beyond just how many points they scored on the field- they were identified and picked. They won the regional.

TL;DR-
If you can convince high ranked teams that they can easily triple balance with you, you will most likely be selected for eliminations.

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by LeadU2Fun

I know you will probably tell me this is the exception but when you balance on a coop bridge with a high seed alliance and they want to pick you but confuse you with a similar team number that tipped when trying to balance, there's a problem. You are saying to rely on their scouting. I say we didn't distinguish ourselves enough. There were good suggestions in here for doing that. Making our "uniforms" and robot's aesthetics recognizable, showing pictures (should have printed the picture of us balancing and given it to them), something to bring attention to robot when it accomplishes a function, pit board with key important aspects, etc. would all help do this.

A robot or team that stands out can help ("those are the guys with the bunny ears, right?") but don't rely entirely on it. There aren't any colors that *someone* isn't using.... One thing we do is take pictures(1) of *every* robot, and we project those at our Friday pick list discussion so everyone knows what robot we're discussing. So one thing you can do is when someone from another team comes by to take a picture, make sure you clear out some space. That would also be a good time to point out "take a look at our bridge wedge, and how we lock it down", and encourage a picture of the specific.

Ask if the photographer is part of the team's scouting group, or if they're just an interested spectator. If the former, tell them what to look for next time you're on the field (and tell them when you'll be there). As other people have said on this thread, we'd be more likely to look at a feature on your robot if you can relate to us why our alliance would need that.

When I'm teaching them how to debug code I tell my FLL kids to look at what the program *does*, not what they *want* it to do. Big difference, and seems obvious when you think about it. Robot performance is exactly the same thing..tell teams what you've done (or what you've fixed to make something work that hadn't been) and tell them what to look for. Good scouting is hard; you can help be noticed if you help the process.

And one other thing: please make sure you listen when we're trying to explain to you why we think you might want to pick us.

(1) when you get to the point that you're taking pictures you get a lot better view of the robot if you take a diagonal shot, not straight on from either the front or the side. And always make sure the bumpers are on.

[Ed Law]

We do not promote ourselves to other teams by telling them what we can do. We show them on the field and in the statistics. Sometimes at the end of Friday, I share our scouting data with the top 24 teams if there is something about us that should be highlighted. I never look at flyers that other teams give us. I am usually way to busy analyzing the data.
We take pictures of every robot with their bumpers on so we know what they look like during our scouting meeting Friday night. We have every bit of scouting information about every robot to make our decision. We have 6 students on a rotating basis to watch every robot of every match. Last year we even tape every match so we can go back to review them if needed.
One suggestion is on Saturday morning, if your team leaves a student at the pit, make sure that student knows about the robot and can answer questions. When I stop by to ask questions, I am interested in that robot and I may not have time to come back a second time if I don't get the answer from that student the first time.
We rely heavily on scouting data, OPRs and notes from watching matches to make our alliance selection list. We put teams into 3 categores, good, average and below average (do not pick) teams. We go back to look at the average category robots and ask questions to finalize where we put teams on our alliance selection sheet.
We usually go back to each pit Saturday morning to confirm

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by jspatz1

Veteran teams learn that the claims about robot capabilities made by team members anxious to be considered may or may not be true.

On Thursday, our "pit scouting" is limited to what kind of drive train teams have -- we don't ask questions about functionality, because teams will inevitably tell you what their robot was designed to do, and not what it actually can do. For all other information we rely on field data.

Originally Posted by jspatz1

If you have an attribute that you think a highly ranked team should want, concentrate on displaying that attribute rather than just winning matches.

Ideally, concentrating on what you're trying to show off should help you win matches. It doesn't always work (three non-scoring robots vs. 1507, 340, and an immobile box), but it's at least putting up the best fight you can put up. If the relevant feature isn't helping your alliance, it probably won't help a tournament alliance either.

Originally Posted by jspatz1

If you get the opportunity to play a qual match with a team you hope to join in elims, concentrate on fulfilling your role, and show them you can be a smart, cooperative partner.

In years past we have eliminated potential picks from our list because they wouldn't stick to a plan agreed to in a qualifying match. I'll bet other teams make the same decision for the same reason.

Originally Posted by jspatz1

If you have a capability that you want us to know about, ask one of our members to get word to our scouters to watch for you and your capability before you play, then go out there and execute it.

Yup. That's a big deal! When asked if we could feed balls at Buckeye, we switched our autonomous mode and fed balls the next match, and told those who had asked to watch.

Originally Posted by EricH

If I'm a Boxbot and I'm paired with two robots of the caliber of 1114 and 254 every single match, I'm going to...

Be ranked 3rd!

Originally Posted by ToddF

Our actual team policy is to do little to no self promotion at all.

Ours, too. We don't make flyers and try to be painfully honest when discussing capabilities in Qualifying Match strategy meetings.

Originally Posted by ToddF

Or is it a case of newcomers seeing people doing something that seems like a good idea, and copying them, even though it's not? (Like shouting "Robot!")

...or putting up "safety fliers" that tell us things like the bathroom floors may be wet?