Driver Station Vision?

[agartner01]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

Also, what you're describing is essentially the kinect. Why do a whole other thing?

Innovation In Control Award anyone?

BTW, lolz:

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

Interesting? I'd say entertaining.

I think the hands, or whatever part of the body being moved, in this case, would be the controller. That would be even more entertaining.

Ref: "Sir, you need to disconnect your hands before starting the match."

Driver: "Wait....what?"

[EricH]

I'm going to go through this once. I may or may not answer questions about the first part of this post. This is another round of FRC History 102: Rules that Changed the Game.

For this episode, we travel back in time to the year almost 10 years ago when autonomous was introduced: 2003. Yep, my first year on a team. I hadn't discovered CD yet, but I've seen some of this sort of thread from way back then.

Now, back in 2002 and before, you had 2:00 of driving. Teams would start the match with sticks at full forward on occasion, especially in 2002. Then along comes this 0:15 of autonomous to start that (actually, there were 30 seconds of match play before teleoperated, but that's another story altogether--humans were actually on the field in 2003 during the matches).

And so teams started coming up with "Can we use this button on the operator interface to control the robot" scenarios, including using the E-stop, if I recall the threads correctly. FIRST then responded: You must be behind this line to start the match or else (I forget the penalty). Collective "WAAAAAHHHH" from the teams who were discussing this, followed by "How can we reach?" and "But we can't go 3 feet fast enough!" See http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=17122, particularly Dave Lavery's post.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Other than the means that FIRST specifically says may be used to control a robot (the IR remotes in 2008 and the Kinect this year, both strictly controlled), if you are controlling a robot in autonomous/hybrid mode with anything other than onboard/on operator console code, you are violating the intent of that mode, and you can bet your rear that the first match you do that in, someone contacts the GDC and says that someone is controlling their robot via non-approved methods. The best you can look forward to is it being ruled legal for the event while the GDC discusses the matter. But then there are rules...

Now, the rules.
[G19]: Any control devices held or worn by the drivers must not be connected during hybrid. As noted, if you're the control device, via a webcam, then either you or the webcam must not be connected. Your choice. (If you're using special clothing, that would be the control device, put it down on the shelf; not only that but there's other rules dealing with that.)

And the largely-unread rules.

[T33]
The only equipment that may be brought in to the Alliance Station is the Operator Console and non-powered signaling devices. Reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability may be brought into the Alliance or Kinect Stations. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for the team, are prohibited.

Guess what controlling the robot during hybrid is? Yep, a competitive advantage. Using your body to provide a competitive advantage... that's a stretch, but I think that that could be called. Could you do something with non-powered signaling devices? Possibly. But you'd be dangerously close to a line between unpowered signalling device and device intended to provide a competitive advantage. Not a line that I'd want to cross.

I should also note that using the reflective tape would probably be considered distracting or jamming a robot's vision system, and shut down under those rules.

In short, you're violating the spirit, but not necessarily the letter, of the rules. And, in short order, you'd probably find yourself also violating the letter of the rules, when the GDC had time to review. How would you feel if the system that won Innovation in Control was ruled definitively illegal almost immediately, if it wasn't ruled illegal from the get-go?

[FrankJ]

There was a team in 2010 that came up with the idea to make a ramp to deflect soccer ball from the input ramp back into their on goal. Dominated their competitions. Not specifically against the rules, but I expect was not something the game committee thought of or intended. I expect this is a similar situation. The camera is part of the allowed devices (no restrictions on operator station computers.) so you can't use [T33]. [G19] applies specifically to worn/held devices which the camera is not. I would be OK with the game committee say the intent of Autonomous (hybrid) is no operator input & saying you cannot do it. Q&A seems to hang on the letter of the rules though. Maybe I will ask just to see the response.

For a variation of a theme has anybody tried voice commands through the op station microphone?

Originally Posted by FrankJ

For a variation of a theme has anybody tried voice commands through the op station microphone?

That would be the coolest thing ever! Unfortunately, it gets pretty loud down there behind the glass.

[FrankJ]

Tell your team they have to chant loudly so the robot will shoot? Might be fun for demonstrations.

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Tell your team they have to chant loudly so the robot will shoot? Might be fun for demonstrations.

You, sir, may just have a test subject for your great idea! Let's see in the off season!

[FrankJ]

If you read rule [1.6]

...The match begins with a 15-second Hybrid Period in which robots operate independently of driver inputs. During this Hybrid Period, one robot on each alliance may be controlled using a Microsoft Kinect. Baskets scored during this period are worth extra points. For the remainder of the match, drivers control robots and try to maximize their alliance score by scoring as many baskets as possible...

Using anything not specifically allowed for driver input during hybrid would not be allowed.

[agartner01]

Alright, first of all, I started this thread just to share what I thought would be a cool idea more than anything. Just putting that out there... Is it realistic? Probably not. But cool? Yep!

Now onto the lawyering:

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Using anything not specifically allowed for driver input during hybrid would not be allowed.

I don't see how rule 1.6 would apply to this, it never disallows means of control

By the way, EricH quoted rule T33 awhile back, I'm going to bring that up again:

[T33]
The only equipment that may be brought in to the Alliance Station is the Operator Console and non-powered signaling devices. Reasonable decorative items, and special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability may be brought into the Alliance or Kinect Stations. Other items, particularly those intended to provide a competitive advantage for the team, are prohibited.

So my question is: how do non-powered signaling devices != hands?

[FrankJ]

The rule says any input (not signalling). Pretty inclusive to me. But I am not the one you have to convince. I don't think you will get much traction with the ref though.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by agartner01

By the way, EricH quoted rule T33 awhile back, I'm going to bring that up again:

So my question is: how do non-powered signaling devices != hands?

If you have something that attaches to your hands, or that is held in your hands, to allow the laptop to see it better (or, more to the point, to make sure that the laptop is getting the correct input hand), then that is your non-powered signaling device. That is the ONLY way you would have even half a chance at being legal for more than the first time you tried this.

And, like Frank said, the rule disallows any input from the drivers. Control with hands is input. As I noted before, when talking about the discussion when automode first came out, that would be akin to using the reset button (or appropriate substitute) to control the robot during automode. Unless it is specifically declared as legal, like the Kinect, then I would assume that this method is not legal.