Mentors as Drive Coaches?

[Will Andrews]

As a member of FIRST Team 1218 for the past four seasons and our driver for the last two, the experience that I have had with FIRST has inspired me to pursue a career as an engineer. This program has gripped me like no other activity I've been involved with because being on the drive team has given me a chance to see the benefits of the long hours spent in the build season. Being a member of the drive team for two seasons has made me feel an enormous sense of responsibility for the success of the team and driven me to higher levels of dedication than my first two years.
This experience makes me wonder, why is it that mentors are allowed to act as coaches on the drive team? One of the biggest problems faced by teams is the limitation on the number of kids that are able to take a role in actually controlling the robot in competition and it seems like allowing mentors to fill the position runs the risk of displacing kids that would otherwise be able to get the full FIRST experience. This is not an attack on teams that use mentors as coaches but rather an attempt to understand the logic behind this exception.

[mwmac]

search function yields threads where this has been debated at length...

[Will Andrews]

Conversation on the topic seems to have died down and I think it's an important issue that should be revived.

[Taylor]

The discussions died because the horse just won't get back up.

The consensus at the end of each of the threads is: What works for your team, works for your team. Great. What works for my team works for my team. Great. Let's not impose our will on other teams where it's not necessary or invited. The logic behind both paradigms is discussed at length in the aforementioned threads.

[GoSparx]

Originally Posted by Will Andrews

As a member of FIRST Team 1218 for the past four season and our driver for the last two, the experience that I have had with FIRST has inspired me to pursue a career as an engineer. This program has gripped me like no other activity I've been involved with because being on the drive team has given me a chance to see the benefits of the long hours spent in the build season. Being a member of the drive team for two seasons has made me feel an enormous sense of responsibility for the success of the team and driven me to higher levels of dedication than my first two years.
This experience makes me wonder, why is it that mentors are allowed to act as coaches on the drive team? One of the biggest problems faced by teams is the limitation on the number of kids that are able to take a role in actually controlling the robot in competition and it seems like allowing mentors to fill the position runs the risk of displacing kids that would otherwise be able to get the full FIRST experience. This is not an attack on teams that use mentors as coaches but rather an attempt to understand the logic behind this exception.

This has been a hot ticket item for years. I personally think that it is ok for teams to have a mentor as a coach. It's the same as a mentor on any mechanical sub-team. If he is showing you what to do and how to do it, why does it matter if it's in the pits or on the field? If you look at high powered teams that have mentors as coaches, they are also great mentors. Teams like HOT, Wildstang and MOE come to mind fast. Don't take it the wrong way that they are coaches, it just works on some teams especially when the coach is a great mentor. Also, think of all the matches that a mentor has seen and all the input he can now have in the coaching role. I've tried to implement it on my team for awhile, but getting buy in from others is tough

[Pavan Dave]

Every team is different and has a different dynamic. Many times the coaches on the field are former students who were drivers in the past. This helps because the coaches understand what being on the flight crew is like and the pressure that comes a long with their role(s). They have more experience and are better able to handle situations than many students.



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[iVanDuzer]

Because mentors are part of the team as well? It's not just the students that need to be inspired.

Also, I was "behind the glass" once, over the course of my 6 years in FIRST. But I'd still say that I got the "full FIRST experience." A driver does not an inspired student make.

[Will Andrews]

It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students. If you're telling the students exactly what to do in the matches then what's the point of even having the students drive the robots? Why not just let the mentors take over? Having mentors coach might make your team more successful but since when is the focus of the competition on winning matches?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Will Andrews

It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students. If you're telling the students exactly what to do in the matches then what's the point of even having the students drive the robots? Why not just let the mentors take over? Having mentors coach might make your team more successful but since when is the focus of the competition on winning matches?

Since it is a competition, the focus is on winning matches whenever you're on the field. Any time you're not on the field, the focus is not on winning matches, true. But if it's a competition, and it is, how are teams not supposed to focus on winning matches?

I think a lot of it has to do with coaching style. The best coaches will tell the drive team high level stuff like "There's one in the corner, go get it and score 3's" or "Go balance this bridge" instead of giving turn-by-turn directions. Or they'll coach to the drive team's level. And you're telling me that a student coach won't tell other students exactly what to do in the matches? That's one I would have a hard time believing across the board, though for individual student coaches I could certainly believe it.

[iVanDuzer]

Originally Posted by Will Andrews

It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students. If you're telling the students exactly what to do in the matches then what's the point of even having the students drive the robots? Why not just let the mentors take over? Having mentors coach might make your team more successful but since when is the focus of the competition on winning matches?

I think your comment is more in line with the role of the coach as a position and less what mentors actually do. Are you saying that student coaches telling student drivers exactly what to do is better then mentors doing the same thing? In both cases the coaches "might as well take over." And if you're suggesting that students would be less pushy then mentors, then I'd say you don't know too many competitive students!

Side note: the focus of the competition is to win. That's why winners get trophies. But the focus of FIRST is inspiration. Competition and FIRST are separate entities that have different goals. Be careful not to get them confused.

EDIT: Eric beat me to it...

[maxweberh]

Our (rookie) team has definitely prospered under having a mentor coach, they were previous drivers, and know a lot about the game and rules. I think the idea of complete student driving, inbounding, and coaching works for some really experienced teams. I think however for some teams having a mentor around in case a chain pops off and you need to fix it in the queuing area, or some other disaster happens, is good. FIRST inspires kids on and off the field. Driving is a great opportunity, but I think some kids just the same rush watching, designing, coding, or building the robot.

This is of course coming from my limited time in FIRST, but from what I have seen mentor coaching isn't depriving students of coaching time. Having multiple drivers is also a solution, if getting as many students behind the glass is the goal.

Thanks

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Will Andrews

It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students.

I don't understand that sentiment at all. Mentors add to the process. That's the very foundation of FRC.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Will Andrews

It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students. If you're telling the students exactly what to do in the matches then what's the point of even having the students drive the robots? Why not just let the mentors take over? Having mentors coach might make your team more successful but since when is the focus of the competition on winning matches?

Different teams have different ideas on how best to accomplish the goals of FIRST. FIRST HQ has purposely remained quiet about which is a preferred way, and has left it up to individual teams to best determine how to run themselves.

Thus, there is no right way or wrong way, only different ways. What works for one team does not necessarily work best for another.

This topic (among several others) come up every year on Chief Delphi. Every year both sides present exactly the same arguments (if you search, every argument or opinion posted in this thread will have been posted multiple times already), and every year the thread either spirals out of control into a unproductive, name-calling flame war and is locked... or both sides agree that there are different and equally acceptable ways to run a team.

[George1902]

Oh look, it's this thread again...

[GCentola]

Originally Posted by Taylor

The discussions died because the horse just won't get back up.

The consensus at the end of each of the threads is: What works for your team, works for your team. Great. What works for my team works for my team. Great. Let's not impose our will on other teams where it's not necessary or invited. The logic behind both paradigms is discussed at length in the aforementioned threads.

Agreed. Unfortunately, not only is the horse beaten to death repeatedly, it usually ends in a big fight between the sides that involves arguing, anger, hating on teams and generally un-FIRST-like conduct.


Speaking from 2 years of experience, I would like to say the following:

SparX believes in having students as the Drive Coach. I have done so for this year and 2011 and cannot express how much the experience has helped me grow as a team member, leader, and, well....Coach. I think there is absolutely a benefit to having students in this position, as long as there are capable students to do so. In the past, we have had very capable coaches ranging in years of experience. Personally, I am incredibly thankfult hat this is my second year because I can use everything I learned last year to help me even further but I will admit that there is still way more out there that I can learn (if you are a seasoned pro at coaching, check out my other post). I love working with other students, I love doing what I do, and I support student coaches.

That doesn't mean I don't believe in mentor coaches. In the words ok Karthik, "Adult coaches are like the rockstars of the FIRST program." I thionk there is also a great deal to be learned from mentor coaches who have seen more battles than many students. In addition, mentor coaches are constant and do not graduate like students do. Team 1717 is a team full of seniors and the team changes every year. In this case, a mentor coach makes sense. There are many adult coaches I look up to as well for their ability, knowledge of strategy and general technique. FLR 2011: I got to play with 217. Paul is intense, but I definitely learned alot from him. IRI 2011: we had a match with 71 and 111 AT THE SAME TIME. The amount of experience between Hammond and Stang easily outweighed anything I could contribute, yet both teams were amazing to work with, and I got to coach alongside Raul. Same with 469 at IRI, and many of the mentor coaches I encountered (in any comeptition).

To sum it up: I have no quarrel with mentor coaches. They defintitely contribute something worthwhile. I am incredibly happy to have the position of Coach on 1126, and to have learned from many mentors. Please do not let this thread turn into a big hate-fest. As long as the kids are inspired, FIRST is working.