Mentors as Drive Coaches?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

Thus, there is no right way or wrong way, only different ways. What works for one team does not necessarily work best for another.

There is indeed a wrong way. Teams that focus on what other teams are doing wrong are doing it wrong (no, this statement is not lost on me, I couldn't come up with a better way of saying it). Basically, focus on you and your team and impact your students to the best of your abilities. Don't worry about other teams, they are doing what they feel is best.

Live and let live.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Live and let live.

This summarizes this topic perfectly.

-Brando

[BrendanB]

The whole goal of FIRST is to get students working side by side with mentors and engineers. The more you take engineers and mentors out of these areas on the team you are really hurting the growth of your students and the passing down of knowledge. This doesn't mean coaches and mentors need to be everywhere but you get the idea.

In short, it comes down to your team and what works for you. If this was really an issue, FIRST would make a rule about it.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I''ll through my hat in ring here because I'm right on the edge of switching this up.

I started as a student in FIRST in 2003 and I had a bad experience with an adult coach. Since than every team I have been a part of has had a completely student drive team. However they also had the luxury of experienced students who could be drive team coach. I'm coaching a new team this year and none of the students have had that much experience (we're only a sophomore team). At lone star this week don't be too surprised if I'm on the field for at least the eliminations matches. I really don't want to be because I've always fought for student coaches on my teams but right now I feel like that stand is stopping my team from excelling and I would never want to do that either.

Will see how the event plays out and it will probably be a decision made by the drive team if they want me there or not, but before last week I had told them that I wouldn't coach when they asked but I'm leaning a lot further to doing it.

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by iVanDuzer

Also, I was "behind the glass" once, over the course of my 6 years in FIRST. But I'd still say that I got the "full FIRST experience." A driver does not an inspired student make.

I was heavily involved on my team, especially directly in working with the robot. I was never on the drive team. Why? Other students were simply more qualified. I tried out for the spot and it really just wasn't my thing. I much preferred hanging in the pits, talking to judges and scouts, and then wandering over to the stands to watch our matches when I could. I don't think I got anything less out of my experience because I was not on the drive team. In fact, because I was not on the drive team, I was able to be a Chairman's Award presenter for my team (after a conflict between our Chairman's presentation time and a match at CMP in 06, we decided it was probably best to not have drivers also present Chairman's), which was another great honor and led to me being able to be a representative for my team off the field while my friends and teammates were representing us on the field. I sometimes acted as "drive coach" during off-season events, but, by that time, our drivers didn't really need much coaching and I was really just there as a placeholder.

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I don't understand that sentiment at all. Mentors add to the process. That's the very foundation of FRC.

This. Again and again this. This is also something that's brought up in threads about student-built robots. Mentors are there to be involved with the team. They're not just babysitters. As it's been said over and over, let teams do what works for them and just worry about yourself. We have had the same drive coach for many, many years. It works well for us. So we leave it as is.

I wish teams would stop criticizing others for the way they choose to run and organize their teams. I see so many posts on here calling out other teams for not being fair for doing things that are within the rules. A lot of times it has to do with such teams being more successful. Maybe, just maybe, they are the ones getting it right. Everyone has every opportunity to have a mentor act as a drive coach. It's not like they're sneaking around to get mentors on the field. So relax.

[Ryan Caldwell]

[Will Andrews]

Once again I tried to make this thread focus on the benefits that coaching can bring to students rather than on the drawbacks of having mentors in the role. This is not an attack on any specific team and is merely what conclusions I can draw from my experience in this program. While being on the drive team isn't necessary for every student, I know that it can make a student's experience far more meaningful. The coach on our team was a fringe member of the team before he was given his new position at the beginning of the year and now he's one of the most involved students we have.

[Koko Ed]

This topics comes up on an annual basis.
Maybe they should make one of the older threads a sticky so anyone who feels they can add anything new to the conversation can go over the tread to see if there is a point to be made or if it has already been made.

[Madison]

...someone gave the kid negative rep. for this? Really?

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Madison

...someone gave the kid negative rep. for this? Really?

It seems like the only reliable way to get negative rep here, aside from blatantly breaking the rules, is to suggest that students should do more and mentors should do less.

Anyway, after watching some drive teams from the field reset position, I've changed my opinion slightly. If a team comes together, as a team, and decides that it would be best if one of the mentors on the team should be the drive coach, well, that's great. Really, I have no problem with that. But when the same mentor is the one that decides the strategy, and turns the robot on, and stands next to their driver in the question box, and works with the FTA, and basically looks like they'd drive if they were allowed to, well, I certainly don't think that's a good sign. When adults are trying to affect as much as possible the one job on the team the rules reserve for students, what does that say about the rest of the team?

[Laaba 80]

Originally Posted by bduddy

But when the same mentor is the one that decides the strategy, and turns the robot on, and stands next to their driver in the question box, and works with the FTA, and basically looks like they'd drive if they were allowed to, well, I certainly don't think that's a good sign. When adults are trying to affect as much as possible the one job on the team the rules reserve for students, what does that say about the rest of the team?

I am a "mentor" drive coach.

I turned the robot on almost every match, because our students were busy lining the robot up, finding good balls to pre load, or plugging in the controls. Flipping the power switch is a rather trivial task.

I used to stand near our driver in the question box so that I can hear what he says, and help him communicate his point more clearly the next time. I no longer do this, as I know he knows what he is doing.

I work with the FTA because our drive team students consist of all mechanical people. If there was any type of mechanical problem on the field, I can assure you that they would be the ones to fix it, I would probably just make it worse.

Our entire team knows that if I could drive the robot again, I would because it is so much fun. I think the same could be said about any former driver.

Many times this season, I wasn't a part of the pre match strategy discussions. Our driver and human player would take care of it, and then fill me in. I would then do a quick chat in the queue line with the rest of the teams to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Please don't make snap judgements of a team when you see them do things a little differently than you.

[dsmoker]

I want to pick up on something Richard said earlier in this thread: drive team is definately NOT the be-all-end-all of the FIRST experience. We have had many students come to us with one purpose: to drive the robot. Some, when they realize that this will not happen immediately for them, leave us. Others stick around. Some of those end up on the drive team; others, for whatever reason, do not. This does not make their FIRST experience less, valuable, or less memorable, for them.

Two of our students in particular come to mind. One was on the drive team his sophomore year as a human player, but was not selected for the drive team his junior year. Although initially disappointed, he agreed to be part of our Chairmain's committee, working on both the written and oral presentations. I will never forget the elation he showed after our team's oral presentation. He came flying down the escalators, he and the other presenters felt that they had done so well. I asked him if that experience was on par with the feeling he got on the drive team, and he said unequivocally that it was. And when we ended up winning Engineering Inspiration, he knew that it was partly due to the impact they had made on the judging panel.

This year, we had a student come to us with the primary purpose of being on the drive team and/or pit crew. Instead, he ended up on our scouting team. Instead of leaving the team or bemoaning his role, he embraced it and ended up to be our lead scout, working closely with not only our scouting crew but with the other team we agreed to co-scout with. He enjoyed himself immensely, learned so much about the game and strategy, and made many new friends from our scouting partners. Not only that, his willingness to serve the team's needs bodes well for him being rewarded in the future by getting one of the roles he so desires.

Finally, we are one of the teams who uses a mentor coach. We are also, however, one of the teams who believes strongly that the students do a large percentage of the work building and repairing the robot. In our pit, students work alongside the mentors. It's the same on the field. We tried having a student drive coach; it just didn't work for us. This year I feel that we had the optimal situation; a drive coach who had been a FIRST student for four years in high school and a mentor for his four years of college. Being a little closer to the students age, he related to them extremely well and knew how to help them strategize without completely taking over. He was also excellent at keeping them loose on the field and having fun with them. It worked well for us this year, and I don't see that changing any time in the future for us.

[Justin447]

you have mentors for each sub team in your team right? just think of the drive coach as the mentor for the drive team

[Gray Adams]

Originally Posted by Laaba 80

Our entire team knows that if I could drive the robot again, I would because it is so much fun. I think the same could be said about any former driver.

And that's why the students want to do it. Once I graduate this June, I know I'm not going yo be driving a robot again. But even if I could, there is no way I would come back and take it away from next year's team.

[daniel_dsouza]

Definitely an intriguing question from the OP.

I would go for the midway point where your coach is picked to best fit the needs of your team.

For us, our drive team consisted of
Human Player: excels in athletics and mechanical
Driver: excels in mechanical and communication (judges, alliances).
Operator: excels in programming and design

For us, the best addition to our team would be someone who excelled in strategy. This way, he/she could coordinate with our alliance partners, and give the drive team high level instructions to maximize our [alliances'] score.

Our best pick was a college freshman, who had been a long standing member of our team as a designer, presenter, driver, coach (yup, we are short-staffed) in previous years. He had come back this year to help us with mechanical engineering stuffs, but since he was also well-versed in rules and strategy, we asked him if he would be our coach.

If there had been a better choice (student or mentor) at the end of the build season, we would have gone for him/her.

In the end, we had a great time, and I felt like our team had an outstanding performance. And I definitely didn't hear anyone complaining that they didn't get the FIRST experience they deserved. Why? Our team made the decision together, in the mind of what would best suit our team.