Go to Post Like many researchers before me, I look and read about what my peers are doing and developing, and then incorperate the best of them into my ideas or change my focus because of them. - Wetzel [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2012, 17:01
Gary Dillard's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Gary Dillard Gary Dillard is offline
Generator of Entropy
AKA: you know, the old bald guy
FRC #2973 (The Mad Rockers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 1,584
Gary Dillard has a reputation beyond reputeGary Dillard has a reputation beyond reputeGary Dillard has a reputation beyond reputeGary Dillard has a reputation beyond reputeGary Dillard has a reputation beyond reputeGary Dillard has a reputation beyond reputeGary Dillard has a reputation beyond reputeGary Dillard has a reputation beyond reputeGary Dillard has a reputation beyond reputeGary Dillard has a reputation beyond reputeGary Dillard has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Gary Dillard
G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

It seems to me that the GDC got the bridge points just about right for the risk involved - triple balance is not a guarantee so it takes some incentive to go for it, and the timing for choosing to go for the 10-20 on either side seems to be consistent with the amount of time to score extra balls in teleop. The blue box in G40 says they may change the value of the balancing score for the Championship based on the higher level of competition - does anyone think they should or will?

Oops - too many LL's in balancing; too used to auto-spellcheck.
__________________
Close enough to taste it, too far to reach it
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2012, 17:07
Grim Tuesday's Avatar
Grim Tuesday Grim Tuesday is offline
Registered User
AKA: Simon Bohn
FRC #0639 (Code Red)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Baltimore MD (JHU)
Posts: 1,607
Grim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond repute
Re: G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

Personally, I hope they make no changes. We'll see what happens at MSC and MAR champs, but as of right now, the values seem about right. If anything, I could see them changing the value of a single from 10 to 5, since really, anyone at a high level can do it and it shouldn't change the game too much.
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2012, 17:07
Gigakaiser Gigakaiser is offline
Registered User
AKA: Brandon Hjelstrom
FRC #0987 (High Rollers)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 67
Gigakaiser has a brilliant futureGigakaiser has a brilliant futureGigakaiser has a brilliant futureGigakaiser has a brilliant futureGigakaiser has a brilliant futureGigakaiser has a brilliant futureGigakaiser has a brilliant futureGigakaiser has a brilliant futureGigakaiser has a brilliant futureGigakaiser has a brilliant futureGigakaiser has a brilliant future
Re: G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

At first I thought the bridge points were over powered, but after seeing what good shooting robots were capable of in thirty seconds it seems almost perfect. If triple balances start to become too easy with "stingers" then we may see a change, though I doubt it.
__________________
FRC Team 987 - It's not enough
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2012, 17:07
Jared Russell's Avatar
Jared Russell Jared Russell is offline
Taking a year (mostly) off
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs), FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,082
Jared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

I think the scoring is basically perfect (for the deep field at CMP) as it is. At some events without a lot of top tier ball scorers a triple was a bit overpowered, but I think it's just the right mix of challenge vs. incentive when Championship-caliber alliances are on the field.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2012, 17:12
Tetraman's Avatar
Tetraman Tetraman is offline
FIRST on my mind
AKA: Evan Raitt
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,322
Tetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond reputeTetraman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

I don't think they should, but I wouldn't be surprised if they increased the bridge points just to make the year even more interesting. I don't think they should go all the way to 50 points, but 45 sounds like a good number. Just so it can offset one additional 3 point shot.
__________________
"For every great theory about design, there is a better and contradictory theory about design. And don't let the irony of that escape you."
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2012, 17:49
Tristan Lall's Avatar
Tristan Lall Tristan Lall is offline
Registered User
FRC #0188 (Woburn Robotics)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,484
Tristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

No need to change it. It's not leading to perverse results, and even if it were, the simplicity of leaving it as is would probably outweigh the benefit of making an adjustment.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2012, 17:57
pfreivald's Avatar
pfreivald pfreivald is offline
Registered User
AKA: Patrick Freivald
FRC #1551 (The Grapes of Wrath)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, NY
Posts: 2,304
pfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond repute
Re: G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post
No need to change it. It's not leading to perverse results, and even if it were, the simplicity of leaving it as is would probably outweigh the benefit of making an adjustment.
Indeed, the number of elimination matches I've seen where a triple balance would not have won had the other alliance made a double, combined with the number of elimination matches I've seen where a triple balance would have won had the other alliance made a double, is sufficient for me to say that the GDC absolutely nailed this one.
__________________
Patrick Freivald -- Mentor
Team 1551
"The Grapes of Wrath"
Bausch & Lomb, PTC Corporation, and Naples High School

I write books, too!
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 09:19
George Nishimura's Avatar
George Nishimura George Nishimura is offline
Lurker
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: London
Posts: 231
George Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud of
Re: G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

I would like to see a triple balance count in qualifications [maybe not the whole 40 points, but 30]. It might not be a popular idea, but I think it would make qualis a lot more interesting.
__________________
Team 1884 - The Griffins (2007-2014)
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:01
Taylor's Avatar
Taylor Taylor is offline
Professor of Thinkology, ThD
AKA: @taylorstem
FRC #3487 (Red Pride Robotics)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA 46227
Posts: 4,605
Taylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnishi2011 View Post
I would like to see a triple balance count in qualifications [maybe not the whole 40 points, but 30]. It might not be a popular idea, but I think it would make qualis a lot more interesting.
But that would be incentive for teams to not use the Coopertition bridge during qualifications. For anybody that has followed Bill Miller's tweets, it's apparent that FIRST Corporate is really excited and hanging their collective hat on the Coop bridge concept, and it may foreshadow similar cross-alliance common-goal opportunities in future games.
__________________
Hi!
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 13:02
JesseK's Avatar
JesseK JesseK is offline
Expert Flybot Crasher
FRC #1885 (ILITE)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Reston, VA
Posts: 3,722
JesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond repute
Re: G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

Irrespective of the point spreads in 6 weeks of Regionals, I think [G40] is more about what the GDC wants spectators to see. If they want more balancing, they'll incentivize it more. If they don't feel the game has enough hoop action, they'll keep balancing the same or lower it.

Personally I think Eliminations for this game are very entertaining to watch as-is.
__________________

Drive Coach, 1885 (2007-present)
CAD Library Updated 5/1/16 - 2016 Curie/Carver Industrial Design Winner
GitHub
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 13:04
George Nishimura's Avatar
George Nishimura George Nishimura is offline
Lurker
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: London
Posts: 231
George Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud ofGeorge Nishimura has much to be proud of
Re: G40 - modifying ballancing points for the Championship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
But that would be incentive for teams to not use the Coopertition bridge during qualifications. For anybody that has followed Bill Miller's tweets, it's apparent that FIRST Corporate is really excited and hanging their collective hat on the Coop bridge concept, and it may foreshadow similar cross-alliance common-goal opportunities in future games.
While this is true, it doesn't change the incentive of going to the co-op bridge. At worst, it makes the co-op bridge more of a "real" decision, because before the only incentive not to go for the bridge was to screw over other teams not involved in the match or to score baskets. Now it's the same, except instead [or in addition to] scoring baskets it's an additional ten points triple.

I don't think it will be a massive game changer, but there are scenarios where not having a triple balance detracts from the game:

- Your team is down by 9 points with thirty seconds to go, the other team has double balanced, and the opposition co-op bot has flipped/disabled/unwilling to co-op.

- It's a winner take all where co-op points won't make a difference, and the difference between score is within ten points. Triple balancing is more exciting than baskets in my opinion.

Because of the dynamic of the triple balance is that it's more risky than the co-op - you could lose a banked 20 points, and a triple is harder to pull off than a co-op in certain cases - and because of the very nature of the seeding system, teams will still choose the co-op. If my team was going to CMP, I would tell them co-op every time, except for very exceptional circumstances [including those highlighted above].

It also helps, because qualifications is not just about ranking, but testing/advertising your robot and scouting/figuring out other robots, and not testing a triple until eliminations can hide some difficulties people may have over-looked.
__________________
Team 1884 - The Griffins (2007-2014)
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:43.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi