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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 03:07
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Re: Best Fender shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Freeman View Post
If you don't think fender defending is effective, I suggest you watch the Troy Finals. 548 if left unchecked during most qualification and elimination matches, scored on average 5 balls/match @ 85% accuracy. In both finals with 244 defending the fender, they scored 1 ball, and shot 20% accurate.

If you are planning to score against the fender and you are playing us, if we think your team is a threat we will be sending a defender to sit in front of the fender and force you to take a lower percentage shot.
I agree with Adam here.
Great fender defense is very possible.

Often times, the greatest defenders have yet to show until CMP, since they spend most of their matches at regionals on the other side scoring instead.

If I spent all match parked at a fender waiting to watch a specific bot, it will not be free reign getting to the spot on the fender first.
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  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 07:58
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Re: Best Fender shooters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjenks548 View Post
I'm the coach for 548, we were having serious problems with out camera tracking at troy. Without the camera a long range shot is 100% manual and very difficult for our drivers. Needless to say changes were made. See you at MSC. Also congrats to 67,469, and 244, by far the toughest defense we have seen yet
548 is without a doubt one of the best fender shooters this season. Unfortunately they have had trouble backing off the fender and hitting shots.

If the changes they have made for assisted camera aim are effective, then they will definitely be a huge factor at MSC.

I hope everything works out. I want our fellow shop mates to excel at MSC and Champs.
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  #33   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 08:35
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Re: Best Fender shooters

Edit:--

The goal of defense would optimally be to completely prevent scoring. However, as most people know this simply isn't usually possible. The way to determine if defense is successful you have to figure out if that robot is making a positive point contriution to its alliance. This means that if the defending robot prevents more points on defense than it would have make on offense it has given it's team a positive contriution by lowering both alliances' scores respectively but the opponent's more. When a team tries to play fender defense on teams that can back up and score effectively from the key they are not preventing very many points from being scored. Instead, they might be better off taking the opponents balls each of which is worth a potential 6 point swing. So if that robot spends the first minute of the match picking up and shooting 3 balls to the other side of the field (potential 18 point swing) that would be the equivelent of preventing 6 balls from being scoring in the high basket. So again, to reitterate, sometimes fender defense is absolutely to correct thing for the defender to do, however, sometimes there is more valuable things they could be doing, especially if the offense dosn't shoot from the fender.
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Last edited by BJC : 11-04-2012 at 08:53. Reason: nevermind
  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 10:07
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Re: Best Fender shooters

Team 1985 here. We do our best shots from the fender for 3 pointers. In the St. Louis finals we had an opposing bot trying to stop us from shooting. The first time they hit us they did make us miss 1 of 2 shots. The second time when we went to the fender and knew they were going to hit us, we did not line up in our normal place so that when they tried to push us they actually pushed us into place, and we score 3 3-pointers. Then they just positioned themselves in front of the fender, so we shot from the key and scored. No one at St. Louis knew we could do that because we always went for the fender. You could hear the groans from their team section when we did that. Its always nice to be able to surprise the opponent.
  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 10:35
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Re: Best Fender shooters

Although I think this is intended to be mostly about MSC/MAR robots, I've seen several others mentioned here, and I am floored we are 3 pages in without someone mentioning 2168. They were #1 seed at BOTH NYC and CT, and incredibly fast and impressive at fender shooting. They were fairly impervious to defense, as they were capable of shooting from the key, but preferred the fender. I'm sad we won't see how they stack up to CMP teams, but perhaps we'll see some good competition at offseasons this year

In general, I think the only-fender robots are going to have a tough time at champs. I have to admit, strategy-wise, I would much rather be against an only-fender robot than with one in eliminations. I think regionals didn't really prove that as many regionals were not more than 10 robots deep when it came to robots able to score 2+ balls in tele, so a very good fender had a chance of scooting around so-so defense. I don't think that will be the case in Champs. With 100-robots deep in each field, my guess is smart teams who know they cannot score with-in the top 15 robots in hybrid/tele will be trying to show off their defensive skills, and its much more likely that fender robots will see a lot more defense in Quals than they have ever seen in the past.

The more I think about it, the more this game intrigues me... how different Quals vs Elims at Regionals has been, and then how different Regionals vs Champs will be... Its almost like you had to design a robot that was good at 3 different games to stack up in the top tier.
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  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 10:44
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Re: Best Fender shooters

1403 is a good 2point fender shooter bot
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 10:56
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Re: Best Fender shooters

Wrote a longer post, but it contained too much strategy.

Bottom line, keep playing defense on us. We encourage it.
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  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 11:24
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Re: Best Fender shooters

Playing defense on fender robots in our experience is very effective from what we experienced at the AZ regional. So if their is a fender robot that is great at scoring, it is usually a good idea to play defense unless that fender robot can shoot with decreased accuracy from the key. In which case you may want to starve your opponent of balls rather than slow their scoring down.

I don't think we will necessarily see the best defenders rise during qualifications at championships. A robot that can score decently will want to show off their scoring and the ones that are in championships because of their defense will be the ones playing defense most of the time. Now in eliminations that is where defense will be most skillfully used. A good scoring robot is usually a great defender because they have a lot of driving skill and prowess and are used to being defended and thus know what is a good way to defend and what is a bad way.
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  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 12:14
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Re: Best Fender shooters

There are a bunch of great fender shooters, to name a few:
2168
1477
1985
548
330

But in my book when you talk about great fender shooters the conversation starts and ends with 2056. You play your first match against them and think that you will just move them sideways or shift them a bit. The first match is over and you have no understanding why despite your best efforts they haven't shifted an inch, you think to yourself, "holy cow those 2 inch wide pneumatic tires are good." You go into your second match against them thinking this time you will stop 2056. Your plan is to sit at the fender and never allow them to get set. You manage to slow them down a bit but because of their ability to line up anywhere on the fender including the side of the fender makes these attempts useless as well. Their turret and their drivetrain makes their fender scoring as good as fender scoring can be. Now say you have figured out a way to stop them from scoring at the fender, they just back up to the key where they are about as consistent as any team out there.
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  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 13:54
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Talking Re: Best Fender shooters

1714 - Teams like this that could score very effectively from the key and fender proved to be very effective. the only thing better would be a team that can score 100% from key or fender.
  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 15:19
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Re: Best Fender shooters


from the key:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ4fdopr42U

fender & key:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u33g6xk2Ygc


  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 15:33
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Re: Best Fender shooters

1056 had a pneumatic arm that dropped in balls for 10 points in 17/17 matches in auto (which most of you are forgetting is an advantage to fender shooting) and only missed one shot the entire tournament during teleop, no it was not due to defense. In one match we had two bots playing defense on us. We still scored 7 baskets during teleop. While some may argue we didn't have "good" defensive bots playing against us I would agree somewhat. Bots that could possibly play defense were probably more valuable as scoring bots for their alliance. Our gearing allowed us to push anyone out of the way and we could also come in from the side if not. Wish we had more chances to show it off. For championships, Baldwin team 2439, showed a strategy that can win. After Hybrid, they drove over to the other side and threw balls to their alliance denying the opposition scoring opportunities. They were excellent at it and would make a great third team. Instead of spending time getting three robots on the bridge, a risky move (40 seconds?) they went on with their partner and allowed the top scoring bot(359) to keep throwing in points. Very effective.
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Last edited by Lavapicker : 11-04-2012 at 15:40.
  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-04-2012, 16:48
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Re: Best Fender shooters

While they definitely aren't going to MSC or MAR, 488 is a fantastic fender shooter, and although their autonomous needed work in Seattle (12 points only about half the time in the finals) I am certain that before CMP they'll have that worked out. I don't remember them shooting from the key outside of hybrid but I wouldn't be surprised if they either can do it already or will be able to do it for championships. They're just that kind of team.
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Unread 11-04-2012, 20:56
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Re: Best Fender shooters

But then agian possibly other teams might not think that you dont have a key shot. like they did to our team in the finials at the St.louis Regional
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