2012 Picklist Formation and Strategy

[Austin2046]

Originally Posted by EdwardP

But in a more general sense, (as a very simple example) say you draft an offensive robot first (Team A), and decide that you now have enough good scorers that there wont be enough balls to score, so drafting a third scorer doesn't make sense.

The problem I have with picking to strategy is always what if that strategy fails? What if we want to do something different, but now we're limited by the makeup of our alliance partners.

Also, i think there are a number of ways to play defense, a good scorer can also be a good defender, but how would you know unless they played defense in their quals? unless you're ranking defenders on pitscouting and drivebase alone... which i feel would be another mistake. A good defender could simply be a ball feeder/stealer starving you're opponents of opportunities to score.

What if in the course of your matches one of your scoring robots break? Maybe they can still drive but their shooter fell off severely hindering their ability to score. Do you then go with 2 defenders and one scorer? Or can the robots on your alliance switch and adapt to play different roles? If you're third bot is just a drivebase, but a really good balancer and defender, i don't think they can fill that void. So then you have to bring in a backup bot and hope that they can fill the role in your strategy.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Austin2046

The problem I have with picking to strategy is always what if that strategy fails? What if we want to do something different, but now we're limited by the makeup of our alliance partners.

I've always been an advocate of picking a 'tactical robot' as a second pick. A tactical robot is a machine that's capable of playing multiple roles on an alliance to allow them to change strategies on the fly. Ex. If your secondary scorers shooter breaks, the Tactical Robot would swap roles with the secondary scorer to finish the match.

In most cases, the tactical robot's role will be very defined (either offense or defense), but it's additional versatility over a 'pure' defense or offense bot might be just what you need in a pinch to move on.

[Chris is me]

I always thought one of the dumbest things you could do in alliance selection is send down anyone but your head scout to make the picks. (With an exception for teams who "whiteboard" picks from the stands, then you can send whomever you want.) The person picking needs to have knowledge of all of the teams being selected.

No matter what you do, ANY list this year NEEDS to have robot orientation on it. In my opinion, if you're not trying for the triple balance, you're not trying for the World Championship. Have fun trying to score 7 balls in the extra ~15 seconds you have over a good triple alliance, or rolling the dice with legally hazy defensive strategies that take a robot away from an offensive contribution anyway.

Some long bots can hang off the end. Some long bots will say they can hang off the end but in practice be really, really bad at it, or won't be able to get enough of themselves on the bridge by the time it starts moving. Knowing the difference is part of good scouting and there is certainly a trust factor in there.

Every pick should have the triple balance in mind. In the first round you should have enough of an idea who you might get to pick that you can talk to them in advance and see what they need to make a triple work. In my mind, that is the true advantage of a top seed in the era of the serpentine.

[flippy147852]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Every pick should have the triple balance in mind. In the first round you should have enough of an idea who you might get to pick that you can talk to them in advance and see what they need to make a triple work. In my mind, that is the true advantage of a top seed in the era of the serpentine.

2054 and 548 did this at MSC. It was no secret that 67 and 469 would be together, so 2054, the barring-catastrophe-second-alliance-captain, and their ideal second pick, 548, asked us if we would triple balance with them Saturday morning to see whether a triple balance with two longbots hanging off the edge and a wide in the middle would work. It ended up working (I'll post a pic later) and they ended up forming an alliance that even gave 67-469-830 a good run for their money

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

In the first round you should have enough of an idea who you might get to pick that you can talk to them in advance and see what they need to make a triple work. In my mind, that is the true advantage of a top seed in the era of the serpentine.

As an aside/advice, try not to let other team's know who you are going to pick. If I'm the #2 seed and I know who the #1 seed is picking, that is a huge advantage for me because I can now talk to the team who I'm picking, discuss strategy and potential 3rd partners. Just this year at Wisconsin, it was an advantage knowing who the top 2 alliances were before selections so we could do more planning before our representative is under the bright lights with a microphone infront of her face. So, its a great idea to talk to the team you are going to pick, but its in your best interest to do it discretely. You earned the right to talk to your future partner, don't give that advantage to the next team.

[3098 callahan]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I always thought one of the dumbest things you could do in alliance selection is send down anyone but your head scout to make the picks. (With an exception for teams who "whiteboard" picks from the stands, then you can send whomever you want.) The person picking needs to have knowledge of all of the teams being selected.

No matter what you do, ANY list this year NEEDS to have robot orientation on it. In my opinion, if you're not trying for the triple balance, you're not trying for the World Championship. Have fun trying to score 7 balls in the extra ~15 seconds you have over a good triple alliance, or rolling the dice with legally hazy defensive strategies that take a robot away from an offensive contribution anyway.

Some long bots can hang off the end. Some long bots will say they can hang off the end but in practice be really, really bad at it, or won't be able to get enough of themselves on the bridge by the time it starts moving. Knowing the difference is part of good scouting and there is certainly a trust factor in there.

Every pick should have the triple balance in mind. In the first round you should have enough of an idea who you might get to pick that you can talk to them in advance and see what they need to make a triple work. In my mind, that is the true advantage of a top seed in the era of the serpentine.

But if you go far in the tournament most teams will probly be able to triple so that means they will cancel out and it comes down to hybrid and telop. And hybrid is more point then telop but potentially you have more time to shoot more baskets. So then comes the question what which one do you go for?

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

No matter what you do, ANY list this year NEEDS to have robot orientation on it. In my opinion, if you're not trying for the triple balance, you're not trying for the World Championship. Have fun trying to score 7 balls in the extra ~15 seconds you have over a good triple alliance, or rolling the dice with legally hazy defensive strategies that take a robot away from an offensive contribution anyway.

What legally hazy defensive strategies are you referring to?

[Duke461]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

What legally hazy defensive strategies are you referring to?

He's probably eluding to something similar to this...
See posts 71 through ~90

-Duke

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Duke461

He's probably eluding to something similar to this...
See posts 71 through ~90

-Duke

For those who don't want to read through the thread, it's the "Park a robot in front of their bridge and force them to force you up it" strategy. Ruled legal at Queen City and illegal at MAR District Champs.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

For those who don't want to read through the thread, it's the "Park a robot in front of their bridge and force them to force you up it" strategy. Ruled legal at Queen City and illegal at MAR District Champs.

I don't believe it was "ruled illegal" at MAR. If I remember correctly, what happened at MAR is that a member of the "balancing" alliance that was already on the bridge repeatedly hit the defending robot, and a large number of [G28] penalties were assessed without any application of [G45]. This was not what many people expected to happen, but I don't believe the same scenario has happened anywhere else.

[nerdherdmember]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

For those who don't want to read through the thread, it's the "Park a robot in front of their bridge and force them to force you up it" strategy. Ruled legal at Queen City and illegal at MAR District Champs.

At the NC regional, the hedgehogs 587 were successful in outpushing a robot, so that only the defensive robot was able to get on the bridge. Good defense is always legal. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to upset the #2 alliance. Good job 1771, 2614, and 4083 anyway! Speaking of defense bots, 4083 was a triangle with wheels that could t-bone pin any robot at the competition.

[3098 callahan]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

For those who don't want to read through the thread, it's the "Park a robot in front of their bridge and force them to force you up it" strategy. Ruled legal at Queen City and illegal at MAR District Champs.

2337 tried to do that to us 33 and 2137 and then we went to the other side of the bridge and they followed us so 33 kept trying to push them out of the way so they could get on and 2337 ended up getting a lot of pentalty points

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

For those who don't want to read through the thread, it's the "Park a robot in front of their bridge and force them to force you up it" strategy. Ruled legal at Queen City and illegal at MAR District Champs.

At MAR, 25 (and their epic drivetrain) slipped past 1218 and got in contact with the bridge. We then proceeded to follow 25 up the bridge, knocking 1218 into 25 repeatedly (G28 with the G44 exception*) while 341 cornered them between the bridge and the barrier, effectively trapping them without instituting G29 pinning.

*Our alliance sought head-ref clarification well in advance to ensure there was no G45. The key was that we knew we wanted a G28 (without G44) rather than a G25 (with G44), so we took this approach instead of the Queen City style.

Moral: know your rules, and be willing to take the licks they require.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Siri

At MAR, 25 (and their epic drivetrain) slipped past 1218 and got in contact with the bridge. We then proceeded to follow 25 up the bridge, knocking 1218 into 25 repeatedly (G28 with the G44 exception*) while 341 cornered them between the bridge and the barrier, effectively trapping them without instituting G29 pinning.

*Our alliance sought head-ref clarification well in advance to ensure there was no G45. The key was that we knew we wanted a G28 (without G44) rather than a G25 (with G44), so we took this approach instead of the Queen City style.

Moral: know your rules, and be willing to take the licks they require.

It sounds to me like you clearly knew what you were doing and were trying to cause your opponent penalties through your actions for the sake of causing penalties, not as a byproduct of legitimate gameplay.

This is G45 in action, is it not? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you and you are not bragging about causing your opponent to take penalty points.

[lemiant]

Originally Posted by Cory

It sounds to me like you clearly knew what you were doing and were trying to cause your opponent penalties through your actions for the sake of causing penalties, not as a byproduct of legitimate gameplay.

This is G45 in action, is it not? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you and you are not bragging about causing your opponent to take penalty points.

It depends how broad of a view you want to take on the game. In that moment they are just taking penalties for the sake of it, but in the grand scheme of the game they are trying to discourage the blocking of their bridge.