2012 Picklist Formation and Strategy

[Chris is me]

I always thought one of the dumbest things you could do in alliance selection is send down anyone but your head scout to make the picks. (With an exception for teams who "whiteboard" picks from the stands, then you can send whomever you want.) The person picking needs to have knowledge of all of the teams being selected.

No matter what you do, ANY list this year NEEDS to have robot orientation on it. In my opinion, if you're not trying for the triple balance, you're not trying for the World Championship. Have fun trying to score 7 balls in the extra ~15 seconds you have over a good triple alliance, or rolling the dice with legally hazy defensive strategies that take a robot away from an offensive contribution anyway.

Some long bots can hang off the end. Some long bots will say they can hang off the end but in practice be really, really bad at it, or won't be able to get enough of themselves on the bridge by the time it starts moving. Knowing the difference is part of good scouting and there is certainly a trust factor in there.

Every pick should have the triple balance in mind. In the first round you should have enough of an idea who you might get to pick that you can talk to them in advance and see what they need to make a triple work. In my mind, that is the true advantage of a top seed in the era of the serpentine.

[flippy147852]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Every pick should have the triple balance in mind. In the first round you should have enough of an idea who you might get to pick that you can talk to them in advance and see what they need to make a triple work. In my mind, that is the true advantage of a top seed in the era of the serpentine.

2054 and 548 did this at MSC. It was no secret that 67 and 469 would be together, so 2054, the barring-catastrophe-second-alliance-captain, and their ideal second pick, 548, asked us if we would triple balance with them Saturday morning to see whether a triple balance with two longbots hanging off the edge and a wide in the middle would work. It ended up working (I'll post a pic later) and they ended up forming an alliance that even gave 67-469-830 a good run for their money

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

In the first round you should have enough of an idea who you might get to pick that you can talk to them in advance and see what they need to make a triple work. In my mind, that is the true advantage of a top seed in the era of the serpentine.

As an aside/advice, try not to let other team's know who you are going to pick. If I'm the #2 seed and I know who the #1 seed is picking, that is a huge advantage for me because I can now talk to the team who I'm picking, discuss strategy and potential 3rd partners. Just this year at Wisconsin, it was an advantage knowing who the top 2 alliances were before selections so we could do more planning before our representative is under the bright lights with a microphone infront of her face. So, its a great idea to talk to the team you are going to pick, but its in your best interest to do it discretely. You earned the right to talk to your future partner, don't give that advantage to the next team.

[3098 callahan]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I always thought one of the dumbest things you could do in alliance selection is send down anyone but your head scout to make the picks. (With an exception for teams who "whiteboard" picks from the stands, then you can send whomever you want.) The person picking needs to have knowledge of all of the teams being selected.

No matter what you do, ANY list this year NEEDS to have robot orientation on it. In my opinion, if you're not trying for the triple balance, you're not trying for the World Championship. Have fun trying to score 7 balls in the extra ~15 seconds you have over a good triple alliance, or rolling the dice with legally hazy defensive strategies that take a robot away from an offensive contribution anyway.

Some long bots can hang off the end. Some long bots will say they can hang off the end but in practice be really, really bad at it, or won't be able to get enough of themselves on the bridge by the time it starts moving. Knowing the difference is part of good scouting and there is certainly a trust factor in there.

Every pick should have the triple balance in mind. In the first round you should have enough of an idea who you might get to pick that you can talk to them in advance and see what they need to make a triple work. In my mind, that is the true advantage of a top seed in the era of the serpentine.

But if you go far in the tournament most teams will probly be able to triple so that means they will cancel out and it comes down to hybrid and telop. And hybrid is more point then telop but potentially you have more time to shoot more baskets. So then comes the question what which one do you go for?

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

No matter what you do, ANY list this year NEEDS to have robot orientation on it. In my opinion, if you're not trying for the triple balance, you're not trying for the World Championship. Have fun trying to score 7 balls in the extra ~15 seconds you have over a good triple alliance, or rolling the dice with legally hazy defensive strategies that take a robot away from an offensive contribution anyway.

What legally hazy defensive strategies are you referring to?

[Duke461]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

What legally hazy defensive strategies are you referring to?

He's probably eluding to something similar to this...
See posts 71 through ~90

-Duke

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Duke461

He's probably eluding to something similar to this...
See posts 71 through ~90

-Duke

For those who don't want to read through the thread, it's the "Park a robot in front of their bridge and force them to force you up it" strategy. Ruled legal at Queen City and illegal at MAR District Champs.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

For those who don't want to read through the thread, it's the "Park a robot in front of their bridge and force them to force you up it" strategy. Ruled legal at Queen City and illegal at MAR District Champs.

I don't believe it was "ruled illegal" at MAR. If I remember correctly, what happened at MAR is that a member of the "balancing" alliance that was already on the bridge repeatedly hit the defending robot, and a large number of [G28] penalties were assessed without any application of [G45]. This was not what many people expected to happen, but I don't believe the same scenario has happened anywhere else.

[nerdherdmember]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

For those who don't want to read through the thread, it's the "Park a robot in front of their bridge and force them to force you up it" strategy. Ruled legal at Queen City and illegal at MAR District Champs.

At the NC regional, the hedgehogs 587 were successful in outpushing a robot, so that only the defensive robot was able to get on the bridge. Good defense is always legal. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to upset the #2 alliance. Good job 1771, 2614, and 4083 anyway! Speaking of defense bots, 4083 was a triangle with wheels that could t-bone pin any robot at the competition.

[3098 callahan]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

For those who don't want to read through the thread, it's the "Park a robot in front of their bridge and force them to force you up it" strategy. Ruled legal at Queen City and illegal at MAR District Champs.

2337 tried to do that to us 33 and 2137 and then we went to the other side of the bridge and they followed us so 33 kept trying to push them out of the way so they could get on and 2337 ended up getting a lot of pentalty points

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

For those who don't want to read through the thread, it's the "Park a robot in front of their bridge and force them to force you up it" strategy. Ruled legal at Queen City and illegal at MAR District Champs.

At MAR, 25 (and their epic drivetrain) slipped past 1218 and got in contact with the bridge. We then proceeded to follow 25 up the bridge, knocking 1218 into 25 repeatedly (G28 with the G44 exception*) while 341 cornered them between the bridge and the barrier, effectively trapping them without instituting G29 pinning.

*Our alliance sought head-ref clarification well in advance to ensure there was no G45. The key was that we knew we wanted a G28 (without G44) rather than a G25 (with G44), so we took this approach instead of the Queen City style.

Moral: know your rules, and be willing to take the licks they require.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Siri

At MAR, 25 (and their epic drivetrain) slipped past 1218 and got in contact with the bridge. We then proceeded to follow 25 up the bridge, knocking 1218 into 25 repeatedly (G28 with the G44 exception*) while 341 cornered them between the bridge and the barrier, effectively trapping them without instituting G29 pinning.

*Our alliance sought head-ref clarification well in advance to ensure there was no G45. The key was that we knew we wanted a G28 (without G44) rather than a G25 (with G44), so we took this approach instead of the Queen City style.

Moral: know your rules, and be willing to take the licks they require.

It sounds to me like you clearly knew what you were doing and were trying to cause your opponent penalties through your actions for the sake of causing penalties, not as a byproduct of legitimate gameplay.

This is G45 in action, is it not? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you and you are not bragging about causing your opponent to take penalty points.

[lemiant]

Originally Posted by Cory

It sounds to me like you clearly knew what you were doing and were trying to cause your opponent penalties through your actions for the sake of causing penalties, not as a byproduct of legitimate gameplay.

This is G45 in action, is it not? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you and you are not bragging about causing your opponent to take penalty points.

It depends how broad of a view you want to take on the game. In that moment they are just taking penalties for the sake of it, but in the grand scheme of the game they are trying to discourage the blocking of their bridge.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Cory

It sounds to me like you clearly knew what you were doing and were trying to cause your opponent penalties through your actions for the sake of causing penalties, not as a byproduct of legitimate gameplay.

This is G45 in action, is it not? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you and you are not bragging about causing your opponent to take penalty points.

My apologies, my rambling was not about causing penalties, but rather about how MAR differed from Queen City's call. Queen City was called around G25; MAR was called for G28. However, our strategy was still the same: get on the bridge. And every action any of us undertook was towards that end, or towards the end of getting/keeping the defender out of the way of that action. 25 got on the bridge [check], we attempted to follow [check] by pushing past 1218/pushing them away (into the into the the barrier+bridge+341 triangle) [check], and 341 attempted to do the same [check].

G28 exists to make defenders move if offensive robots can create the needed situation, the same way anyone picks up a ball and has to use G28 to get a clear shot on the key, or crosses into their lane uses it to load from their inbounder station. The point is not to force penalties, but rather to force movement via penalties/threats thereof. 1218 being over there was not a result of our actions, but rather theirs*. Their decision to stay (rather than get out/sit beside the bridge) was also their own, despite our attempts to dissuade them.


The most important part though, is the head ref aspect. Any alliances thinking of doing this at Worlds (I expect we'll see at least one) may want to check themselves very early as well to make sure everyone is prepared and understands the relevant intricacies.


*The only G45 I've ever known (not implying it's the only one) was when an defensive bot pushed a offensive bot across the field and into their lane, repeatedly smashed them, was waved off by a ref, and came back and smashed them again.


Is that better? I hadn't intended to sound pompous. Strategy gets exciting to me.

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Cory

It sounds to me like you clearly knew what you were doing and were trying to cause your opponent penalties through your actions for the sake of causing penalties, not as a byproduct of legitimate gameplay.

This is G45 in action, is it not? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you and you are not bragging about causing your opponent to take penalty points.

We were not trying to win with fouls. We were trying to get robots balanced. 25 and 1640 were battling for position to try and get the bridge lowered, and I think that the majority of the fouls occurred prior to the third robot (341) arriving. Keep in mind that 25's bridge lowering maneuver is a wheelie with a running start; they had to keep backing up and trying again in order to have a shot at getting the bridge down.

With the clock ticking down, I told our driver to try and dislodge 1218's robot from its position in front of the bridge. They have a long robot and I was hoping that by pushing them from a corner, we could "spin" them out of their position at the front of the bridge. You can see from the video that we were able to turn them out of position partially, but still didn't give 25 enough room. I believe that at no point 1218 was truly "pinned in" - had they applied forward throttle they would have scooted out towards the co-op bridge.

You can see what I mean here:
http://youtu.be/w2bQ_frSNlk?t=1m57s

The discussion with the referees prior to the match was to clarify that trying to balance a bridge is "within the spirit of the game" and not an abuse of G44. It's exactly like lining up for a key shot; you can keep hitting a blocking robot until they move out of your way.