Go to Post We are just helping to keep Home Depot from going Bankrupt :D . - E. Wood [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #46   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 15:58
AmoryG AmoryG is offline
Registered User
FRC #2423 (KwarQs)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Watertown, MA
Posts: 221
AmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud of
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by nighterfighter View Post
Except because 111 was not in the top 8, they wouldn't have declined.
They might have if they were confident someone within the top 8 would have picked, making them an alliance captain.
__________________
KwarQs 2423

2008 Boston Regional Rookie Allstars

http://whsrobot.blogspot.com/
  #47   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 15:58
Eugene Fang's Avatar
Eugene Fang Eugene Fang is offline
The Blue Alliance
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Bay Area, CA -> Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 772
Eugene Fang has a reputation beyond reputeEugene Fang has a reputation beyond reputeEugene Fang has a reputation beyond reputeEugene Fang has a reputation beyond reputeEugene Fang has a reputation beyond reputeEugene Fang has a reputation beyond reputeEugene Fang has a reputation beyond reputeEugene Fang has a reputation beyond reputeEugene Fang has a reputation beyond reputeEugene Fang has a reputation beyond reputeEugene Fang has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by nighterfighter View Post
And 1771 was first seed.

If 1771 picks 254, 254 declines. No big loss, as they are #2 seed.

If 1771 picks 111, they won't decline, since they aren't in the top 8.

If 1771 picks 1114, they won't decline, since they aren't in the top 8.

The only way 111 would have made it into the top 8 would be if 1771 picked someone else from the top 8.
Once again, 111 was 9th, and it's reasonable to assume that other teams in top 8 (besides 1771) would have paired up with other teams in top 8. I don't mean to argue that picking/not picking 111 was the right choice. I'm just trying to show that picking 111 was not an unreasonable option.
__________________
Eugene Fang
2010 Silicon Valley Regional Dean's List Finalist

Various FLL Teams - Student (2000-2006), Mentor (2007-2010)
FRC Team 604 - Student (2007-2010), Mentor/Remote Advisor (2011-2015)
FRC Team 1323 - Mentor/Remote Advisor (2011-2014)

The Blue Alliance | TBA GameDay | TBA Android App
  #48   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 16:02
nighterfighter nighterfighter is offline
1771 Alum, 1771 Mentor
AKA: Matt B
FRC #1771 (1771)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Suwanee/Kennesaw, GA
Posts: 835
nighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant future
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneF View Post
Once again, 111 was 9th, and it's reasonable to assume that other teams in top 8 (besides 1771) would have paired up with other teams in top 8. I don't mean to argue that picking/not picking 111 was the right choice. I'm just trying to show that picking 111 was not an unreasonable option.
Yes, you are right.

I was referring to 1771 attempting some form of a "scorched earth", as being discussed.

The way the alliances were seeded on Galileo last year couldn't really allow a scorched earth, while still allowing a chance for the alliance to do very well.

Sorry for any confusion.
  #49   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 16:06
AmoryG AmoryG is offline
Registered User
FRC #2423 (KwarQs)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Watertown, MA
Posts: 221
AmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud ofAmoryG has much to be proud of
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by nighterfighter View Post
Yes, you are right.

I was referring to 1771 attempting some form of a "scorched earth", as being discussed.

The way the alliances were seeded on Galileo last year couldn't really allow a scorched earth, while still allowing a chance for the alliance to do very well.

Sorry for any confusion.
I know this might be a pointless question, but in hindsight do you think 1771 might have tried to split any combination of 111/254/1114 by selecting 111, assuming they would decline?
__________________
KwarQs 2423

2008 Boston Regional Rookie Allstars

http://whsrobot.blogspot.com/
  #50   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 16:11
nighterfighter nighterfighter is offline
1771 Alum, 1771 Mentor
AKA: Matt B
FRC #1771 (1771)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Suwanee/Kennesaw, GA
Posts: 835
nighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant futurenighterfighter has a brilliant future
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmoryG View Post
I know this might be a pointless question, but in hindsight do you think 1771 might have tried to split any combination of 111/254/1114 by selecting 111, assuming they would decline?
To be honest, we were discussing either 254 or 1114.
We were informed that 254 would decline us, (and because they were second seed, it wouldn't do anything to disrupt them) and we didn't think that 111 would decline us.

We felt we had a better chance of winning with 1114. We knew that 254 and 111 would then pair together, but we had no way of stopping it, unless we let 254 and 1114 pair together.

We thought it was the "lesser of two evils", so to say.

Note: None of these teams were, in ANY way, bad. It's just what our anecdotal scouting data told us. (We couldn't scout. Our team consisted of 6 students, including the drive team.)
  #51   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 16:11
JB987 JB987 is online now
Registered User
AKA: Joe Barry
FRC #0987 (HIGH ROLLERS)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: May 2006
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: LAS VEGAS
Posts: 1,176
JB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
Separate post, because I forgot I wanted to address the topic of "weaker" alliances somehow letting down their division on Einstein. Which is what JB987 seems to be suggesting by stating the division suffers from a scorched earth selection strategy. If that's not the case, then my apologies, and I suggest more artful phrasing than "the price you pay" and divisions "suffering".

Frankly, this makes no sense. Teams are under no obligation whatsoever to put the interests of the division ahead of their own. For all the encouragement of cheering on your division on Einstein, the whole process is obviously focused on individual teams striving to get as far as they can. Not on a particular division trying to win on Einstein. If they latter were the case, there wouldn't be a point to alliance selections at all. You'd just have a panel of experts pick the division alliance most likely to cream the other divisions.

It's nonsense even if your position is just that it's somehow morally wrong to do alliance selections in a fashion that "weakens" the division. If that were the case, then it'd be morally wrong for any of the "weaker" alliances to pick a non-Top 8 powerhouse team before the "strongest" alliance had a chance at it for a second pick. The only morally right strategy would be for everyone to stay out of the way of the formation of an otherwise completely improbable mega-alliance of 3 powerhouse teams.

So no, I don't think there's a thing wrong with a "scorched earth" selection strategy, and I don't think teams should worry one whit that they might be "weakening" their division by pursuing it.
I don't recall commenting on morality associated with alliance decisions and I basically feel that all's fair as long as the rules are followed..and the rules certainly allow for a number one seed to ask every other team to join them. And teams certainly should not feel obligated to make any decision that may benefit the competitive success of a given division on Einstein. Believe me, our team last year didn't decide to decline the number one seed and wait to pick 968 because we were thinking of what our division "needed". We chose them because they were ranked high on our scouting list and were a good match (same for team 51, our second pick). I am just suggesting that the consequences of some alliance decisions can affect the likelihood (odds) of success (either positively or negatively) for that team and the division going forward.
  #52   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 17:16
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,817
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneF View Post
They were 9th seed, so they would have made it to top 8 after teams paired. It all comes down to whether 111 felt they had a better chance at winning from a low seed (such as 8th captain) with 254/1114 broken up, or if they felt that 111/1771 could have beaten 254/1114. Either is quite possible.
As I recall it, 111 would have been on the outside looking in until #7 picked #8. That could have turned out disastrously for them if they had said no and 7 had not picked 8.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
  #53   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 18:08
Nemo's Avatar
Nemo Nemo is offline
Team 967 Mentor
AKA: Dan Niemitalo
FRC #0967 (Iron Lions)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 804
Nemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Since 2011 Galileo has been mentioned, here is an interesting factoid: we lost our last match by 3 points, and it could have gone either way. A win would have put us at 9-1 and #2 seed. I don't know how that would have panned out, but I think we would have prevented 254 from picking 111.
  #54   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 18:41
EricDrost's Avatar
EricDrost EricDrost is offline
Eleven to MidKnight
FRC #1923 (The MidKnight Inventors)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 256
EricDrost has a reputation beyond reputeEricDrost has a reputation beyond reputeEricDrost has a reputation beyond reputeEricDrost has a reputation beyond reputeEricDrost has a reputation beyond reputeEricDrost has a reputation beyond reputeEricDrost has a reputation beyond reputeEricDrost has a reputation beyond reputeEricDrost has a reputation beyond reputeEricDrost has a reputation beyond reputeEricDrost has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
As I recall it, 111 would have been on the outside looking in until #7 picked #8. That could have turned out disastrously for them if they had said no and 7 had not picked 8.
It wouldn't have turned out disastrously. It would have turned out as an 8-way race to declare that your second pick "broke" and you need a back up bot (the next highest seed).
__________________
MORT Team 11: 2008 - 2015
MKI Team 1923: 2015 - Present
  #55   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 19:28
Jared Russell's Avatar
Jared Russell Jared Russell is offline
Taking a year (mostly) off
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs), FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,080
Jared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricDrost View Post
It wouldn't have turned out disastrously. It would have turned out as an 8-way race to declare that your second pick "broke" and you need a back up bot (the next highest seed).
Exactly.
  #56   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 21:12
Gregor's Avatar
Gregor Gregor is online now
#StickToTheStratisQuo
AKA: Gregor Browning
no team
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,447
Gregor has a reputation beyond reputeGregor has a reputation beyond reputeGregor has a reputation beyond reputeGregor has a reputation beyond reputeGregor has a reputation beyond reputeGregor has a reputation beyond reputeGregor has a reputation beyond reputeGregor has a reputation beyond reputeGregor has a reputation beyond reputeGregor has a reputation beyond reputeGregor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricDrost View Post
It wouldn't have turned out disastrously. It would have turned out as an 8-way race to declare that your second pick "broke" and you need a back up bot (the next highest seed).
Watch out, the GP police are coming
__________________
What are nationals? Sounds like a fun American party, can we Canadians come?
“For me, insanity is super sanity. The normal is psychotic. Normal means lack of imagination, lack of creativity.” -Jean Dubuffet
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." -Albert Einstein
FLL 2011-2015 Glen Ames Robotics-Student, Mentor
FRC 2012-2013 Team 907-Scouting Lead, Strategy Lead, Human Player, Driver
FRC 2014-2015 Team 1310-Mechanical, Electrical, Drive Captain
FRC 2011-xxxx Volunteer
How I came to be a FIRSTer
<Since 2011
  #57   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 21:30
Joe Ross's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Ross Joe Ross is offline
Registered User
FRC #0330 (Beachbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,590
Joe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricDrost View Post
It wouldn't have turned out disastrously. It would have turned out as an 8-way race to declare that your second pick "broke" and you need a back up bot (the next highest seed).
The manual prefaces the the backup teams as being "eligible". Presumably, a team that declines is not eligible to be a backup robot.
  #58   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 21:37
Don Wright's Avatar
Don Wright Don Wright is offline
Registered User
FRC #0469
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 683
Don Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond reputeDon Wright has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Don Wright Send a message via Yahoo to Don Wright
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
As I recall it, 111 would have been on the outside looking in until #7 picked #8. That could have turned out disastrously for them if they had said no and 7 had not picked 8.
Didn't 3 pick 4, 4 declined and then 3 picked 2337 which I think was 6?
__________________
Donald F. Wright Jr.
Product Manager
AVL Instrumentation & Test Systems, Inc.
  #59   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 21:40
O'Sancheski O'Sancheski is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 675
O'Sancheski has a reputation beyond reputeO'Sancheski has a reputation beyond reputeO'Sancheski has a reputation beyond reputeO'Sancheski has a reputation beyond reputeO'Sancheski has a reputation beyond reputeO'Sancheski has a reputation beyond reputeO'Sancheski has a reputation beyond reputeO'Sancheski has a reputation beyond reputeO'Sancheski has a reputation beyond reputeO'Sancheski has a reputation beyond reputeO'Sancheski has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Disrupting Alliances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Wright View Post
Didn't 3 pick 4, 4 declined and then 3 picked 2337 which I think was 6?
3 picked 40 who was outside the top 8.
  #60   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-04-2012, 22:27
JR.'s Avatar
JR. JR. is offline
Registered User
AKA: Joel
FRC #0365 (The Miracle Workerz)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: MOE
Posts: 8
JR. is a splendid one to beholdJR. is a splendid one to beholdJR. is a splendid one to beholdJR. is a splendid one to beholdJR. is a splendid one to beholdJR. is a splendid one to beholdJR. is a splendid one to behold
Re: Disrupting Alliances

I will preface this by saying I think trying to predict a situation that did not happen is very difficult if not impossible. But if 1771 had picked 111 and they had declined and then picked 1114 then who would 254 had picked? With 6 opportunities to pick within the top 8 I think it is likely that 111 would have been an alliance captain. Although I can't speak for 111 but if I was in their situation and 1771 had picked me then I would have declined because I would have the aspiration of winning my division and einstein not just making it as far as possible and I would not have had a favorable chance of beating a 254/1114 alliance that also picked a 3rd bot before I did. Furthermore in a very deep division I would have had a great opportunity to pick 2 very good bots from the 7 or 8 seed and form a very scary alliance like 217 did.

I would also like to add that my opinion/comments are in no way meant to offend anyone or criticize 1771 for picking 1114 in fact I commend them on seeding first in such a stacked division.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:38.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi