Einstein Field issues Handled correctly?

[Astrokid248]

A quick disclaimer: I don't speak for the Robonauts, I speak for myself. Contents of this post are influenced by what I heard from my fellow mentors and students, but this is my opinion and you should not associate it with my team.

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Well said
Maybe we'll stop hearing how it is not the field and it must be our robot. The anxiety that Dean and Woody experienced was a small fraction of what the finalists and other teams have been experiencing.

This is the real reason I am so upset. It's not just that we didn't get to play, it's that we didn't get to play and FIRST blamed it on us. "There was a problem in SF2-1; there may or may not have been a problem with SF1-1." That sentence, said by the emcee, seems like it was targeted directly at 118, at least to me. It sounds like they decided that we didn't deserve a second chance, but they were giving it to us only to appear fair. I was livid in the stands when I heard that, and I probably made my team look bad with some of my angry screams (for that, I apologize). But to claim it was our fault, after what happened in Connecticut and how hard we worked to replicate 364's issues at Lone Star, was just unbelievable.

Furthermore, the commentary during the matches made it sound as if we had control over how immobile our robot was. There's a reason we nicknamed Archimedes the Eh Team beyond them being Canadian; they were really incredible, and deserved to be thought of as the A team, the best FIRST could offer. But from the commentary of the match alone, you'd think Curie was playing against a bunch of rookies. It was very derogatory. There was nothing FIRST could do about the connection errors (at least, that late in the season) or the schedule or even the tornado. The show must go on. But where FIRST went wrong was making it seem like the teams were responsible, and then actively ignoring our plight during match commentary. It was rude, it was unprofessional, it was about as opposite as gracious as you can get. That's where FIRST abandoned its values, and that's what FIRST needs to correct.

We as a community will do everything we can to help FIRST get the communication issues resolved. We will overlook what happened on Einstein in the name of science, and continue to recruit and spread the values of FIRST. But I personally will not stop expressing my opinion in forums such as this until FIRST apologizes for the way they treated the 12 teams on Einstein. Kamen just knelt by the side of the field and looked upset while watching the train derail, and then pretended there wasn't a problem when it came time to pass out awards. You cannot tell me that was the right thing to do. FIRST has never needed accountability before, but they do now. 16, 25, and 180 deserved the win, but the rest of the alliances deserved to play.

[Solidstate89]

I'm really hoping that because these particular radio issues that affected Einstein were not only so debilitating but also so public (biggest matches of the season and all) that it will really, well for lack of a better word; "shame" FIRST into finaly looking seriously at the issue of connectivity. For as long back as I can remember (before they switched to routers) there have been connectivity issues. Years and years now this has been going on, affecting one team or the other with some field set-ups exacerbating the issue further.

It's just been a running joke, like the old submission process for Autodesk Inventor files (Pack & Go assembly - upload files - files fail to upload - contact Autodesk - Autodesk responds and says since the uploads failed for everyone they'd push the deadline back) until they changed the submission process for this season.

So, again. Here's hoping they take a very serious look at the issue. As far as some of the opinions expressed in this thread; I do think the fault lies somewhere with the consumer routers they're using and I do not think this is a "tainted" win. Every team had to deal with these connectivity issues. They never should have been an issue in the first place, but it happened and there's nothing we can change about that now.

[Undertones]

This could be a very long post, I will do the best to explain my full thoughts on the Einstein field issues.

Being the driver for 4334, I was front and center in experiencing this awful event. I can't tell you how awful it is for your whole alliance to go down during the championship finals. Forgive any bitterness I may have in this post, I am pretty biased on this event.

While I understand that FIRST had their reasons for handling things in the way that they did, it was completely disgusting. The volunteers that I dealt with were all less than helpful, they brushed me off more than once, and not once did they give us a straight answer. I realize and recognize that they didn't have answers, but the least they could do is admit there was a problem (which they did when we replayed those matches). It made it hard for anyone to believe that they fixed the problem when the problem continued. I was standing there listening as a volunteer tried to tell 2056 is was a battery issue with their bot. I mean, 2056 has had a perfect record this season in terms of up time and robot reliability. Loose connection in one match; improbable but plausible. Loose connection in 2 matches; highly unlikely but possible. Loose connection in all three matches; I mean, look at the stats and tell me that's what happened.

They did the right thing by replaying the first two matches - they did the wrong thing by powering through and denying that there was a problem. I don't think I'll ever forget the moment I lost faith in the FIRST system - just the injustice of what happened was enough to make me want to quit FRC. After a match when so many robots went down, holding faith that they would replay, and then not doing it... It's ridiculous. If there was a massive hole in the ice at the Stanley Cup finals, they'd stop and fix the ice. This was a world championship event, and the field didn't work? That should be the least of anyone's concern. And to think - if I won worlds, went home, got on Delphi, and saw that there was problems with the field, I would seriously question the legitimacy of the award. That alone should have been reason enough to fix the field. And think of how bad this made FIRST look - people who don't really know anything about the dynamics of Rebound Rumble and the structure of the FIRST ranking system/elimination processes must be thinking "Wow. How bad were the rest of the robots?"

As anyone involved in the community knows, FIRST is all about gracious professionalism, honesty, integrity... And they informed 10,000 kids by example that none of that matters when your reputation is on the line.

Now, I'm not going to go into "well, this would have happened if.." The All-Canadian Alliance has been the FIRST Canada dream for years now, and this year it became a reality. People recognized how strong an alliance we were. We had a really good run, and it stung to see and feel it end how it did. Anyone who's ever gone down during a match can agree with me it's probably the worst thing that can happen to you. It's horrible. And then for them to turn around and tell us it was our robots? Add insult to injury, why don't you.

Honestly, I'm impressed by FIRST's acknowledgement of the problem. I think we'll probably never know what caused it. I've heard all kinds of ideas on what happened, from thunderstorm interference to conspiracy theories involving the War of 1812. (I actually overheard someone say that last time there was a bunch of Canadians in the White House they burned it down).

So, as respectfully as I can, and with as much gracious professionalism as possible, FIRST screwed up big time. I hope they took away from this a valuable lesson.

I guess above all, I wanted to show the world our siiick triple balance. I think we can all agree it was a thing of beauty.

We need to make sure something like this never happens again. It's unprofessional, low, and unbecoming.

Learn from the past and apply it to the future.

On a lighter note, the rest of the championship was amazing. So good to meet so many amazing people, I had a great time aside from the last night.

Mac
ATA 4334

[sgreco]

In declaring a winner, you're also inherently declaring losers. How was it fair for FIRST to tell 118, 2194, 548, 1114, 2056, 4334, 233, 207 and 987 that they lost? None of these teams ever lost a legitimate round at the championships. This is the biggest question mark for me.

I realize I'm treading on thin ice for saying what I'm about to say and I want to preface it by saying that I have the utmost respect for 25, 180, and 16. They are very classy and professional teams, with incredible robots, and they all deserved to win a championship title. The problem is, the 118, 2194, 548, 1114, 2056, 4334, 233, 207 and 987 are all deserving as well. Nobody won or lost a legitimate match on Einstein, and I question FIRST's decision to award a title at all.

I really want to stress that in saying this I mean nothing against the winning teams. Given the decisions FIRST made, they followed exactly what they were supposed to do. They were even gracious and professional enough to hold back on celebrations out of respect for the other teams there. They were truly a class act. I want to also stress what I said in the beginning; FIRST inherently told the other 9 teams on Einstein that they had lost in declaring that one of the teams had won, and I don't believe this was fair to given the way the matches were played.

And I feel for the losing teams, but I feel even worse for the winning teams. They were put in a difficult situation, and they handled as well as anyone possibly could. They all worked so hard to win a title at the championships, and they deserving achieved their goal, but were unable to celebrate the accomplishment to the fullest. That must be an awful feeling, to know you won, and know you deserved to win, but have some form of an asterisk next to the title. I feel bad for them. They are great teams, and I wish them the best of luck next year!

[Kit Gerhart]

I think we all feel the same way, some more vocally than others. Our alliance felt reason to celebrate winning Curie, beating a very good alliance of Daisy, Poofs, and Air Strike. We did NOT feel so good about beating the Maple Leaf Alliance, because those were not fair matches.

At this point, we only need to trust that by next year, there will be a reliable control system, whatever it takes.

[jblay]

It seems to me like the teams on Einstein understand the spirit of FIRST more than the people that are running FIRST. All season these problems have persisted and teams were told it was their own fault and were robbed not only of the time they put into FRC but also the money they invested in the competition. The idea that it needed to happen on Einstein before something was done is truly disgusting to me. Today for the first time in my 7 years in FIRST I am not proud to consider myself a part of this great organization. Then again I am proud to associate myself with the teams that played on Einstein and acted the right way. FIRST should take a lesson from these teams, a lesson they were supposed to be teaching these teams not the other way around.

This is just my personal outrage because I have been waiting since week 1 to see how this game would play out on Einstein and now I never will.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Undertones

The volunteers that I dealt with were all less than helpful, they brushed me off more than once, and not once did they give us a straight answer. I realize and recognize that they didn't have answers, but the least they could do is admit there was a problem (which they did when we replayed those matches). It made it hard for anyone to believe that they fixed the problem when the problem continued. I was standing there listening as a volunteer tried to tell 2056 is was a battery issue with their bot. I mean, 2056 has had a perfect record this season in terms of up time and robot reliability. Loose connection in one match; improbable but plausible. Loose connection in 2 matches; highly unlikely but possible. Loose connection in all three matches; I mean, look at the stats and tell me that's what happened.

I've seen this over and over.

I've commented on it here (see post 204):
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...104713&page=14

The problem is that if it is power quality issues they suspect, the field folk lack the tools themselves to confirm promptly and to some extent so do you.

So it's an easy fix all to move you forward. They tell you that it's some part of the power system. They have some authority so you naturally move forward.

Course when you realize that you've exhausted all your capability, you have not satisfied them, and you're still stuck. Then you start to get the impression they are messing with you.

I've not seen anyone recently make such a recommendation just to cause you problems to a team. However, if they did you'd never get past it at a competition....no matter how hard you try at the average competition I've seen you'll never prove your point with the tools on hand.

Sometimes I think that the field personnel when increasingly confronted over the issue naturally side with the familiar and assume that it's more likely it's your problem then the field. Their observation is just as anecdotal. You could have dropped a DC-DC converter after 3 matches as we did. Not a wiring problem in sight, but a bad D-Link AP power supply none-the-less.

In any case, neither the field folk or the teams should point fingers at each other. More often than not you didn't have the tools to remove the doubt, that doesn't make the concern invalid.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by sgreco

In declaring a winner, you're also inherently declaring losers. How was it fair for FIRST to tell 118, 2194, 548, 1114, 2056, 4334, 233, 207 and 987 that they lost? None of these teams ever lost a legitimate round at the championships. This is the biggest question mark for me.

There was discussion while matches were being played on Einstein about giving everyone there a finalist medal. Most people there were instantly turned off to the idea since that meant there would be no winner.

Honestly, to me, that would've been more offensive than anything. I'd rather lose to the field and have a winning Alliance of 16, 25 and 180 than be called an Einstein Finalist along with 11 other teams.

[Undertones]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

I've seen this over and over.

I've commented on it here (see post 204):
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...104713&page=14

The problem is that if it is power quality issues they suspect, the field folk lack the tools themselves to confirm promptly and to some extent so do you.

So it's an easy fix all to move you forward. They tell you that it's some part of the power system. They have some authority so you naturally move forward.

Course when you realize that you've exhausted all your capability, you have not satisfied them, and you're still stuck. Then you start to get the impression they are messing with you.

I've not seen anyone recently make such a recommendation just to cause you problems to a team. However, if they did you'd never get past it at a competition....no matter how hard you try at the average competition I've seen you'll never prove your point with the tools on hand.

Sometimes I think that the field personnel when increasingly confronted over the issue naturally side with the familiar and assume that it's more likely it's your problem then the field. Their observation is just as anecdotal. You could have dropped a DC-DC converter after 3 matches as we did. Not a wiring problem in sight, but a bad D-Link AP power supply none-the-less.

In any case, neither the field folk or the teams should point fingers at each other. More often than not you didn't have the tools to remove the doubt, that doesn't make the concern invalid.

Thing is, we know it wasn't the robots. After every match we took them backstage and ran a full systems check, and they were all fine. And the bots weren't always down for the whole match. Just sometimes. They kept coming online and going offline without rhyme nor reason. We know it was not our robots.

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by thefro526

There was discussion while matches were being played on Einstein about giving everyone there a finalist medal. Most people there were instantly turned off to the idea since that meant there would be no winner.

Honestly, to me, that would've been more offensive than anything. I'd rather lose to the field and have a winning Alliance of 16, 25 and 180 than be called an Einstein Finalist along with 11 other teams.

Perhaps everybody should have been given a "champion" medal, trophy, and banner.

[Undertones]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

I've seen this over and over.

I've commented on it here (see post 204):
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...104713&page=14

The problem is that if it is power quality issues they suspect, the field folk lack the tools themselves to confirm promptly and to some extent so do you.

So it's an easy fix all to move you forward. They tell you that it's some part of the power system. They have some authority so you naturally move forward.

Course when you realize that you've exhausted all your capability, you have not satisfied them, and you're still stuck. Then you start to get the impression they are messing with you.

I've not seen anyone recently make such a recommendation just to cause you problems to a team. However, if they did you'd never get past it at a competition....no matter how hard you try at the average competition I've seen you'll never prove your point with the tools on hand.

Sometimes I think that the field personnel when increasingly confronted over the issue naturally side with the familiar and assume that it's more likely it's your problem then the field. Their observation is just as anecdotal. You could have dropped a DC-DC converter after 3 matches as we did. Not a wiring problem in sight, but a bad D-Link AP power supply none-the-less.

In any case, neither the field folk or the teams should point fingers at each other. More often than not you didn't have the tools to remove the doubt, that doesn't make the concern invalid.

For argument's sake, let's say hypothetically that is what happened to 2056's bot. How do you explain the same thing happening to all the other robots that went down during the finals? I kind of don't think that all the robots had the exact same electrical problem.

[Undertones]

Well, seeing as there was no legitimate wins or losses on Einstein, it would stand to reason that everyone tied. However, I'm not sure if that would be more embarrassing for the teams or for FIRST. There is really no happy medium. Plus what would they do about visiting the White House and all that?

No matter how you cut it, it's the same garbage. The only thing we can do it figure out what went wrong and try to prevent it from ever happening again.

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by Undertones

Plus what would they do about visiting the White House and all that?

AFAIK that is a CCW thing... so 1114 gets the honor this year.

[Astrokid248]

Originally Posted by ratdude747

AFAIK that is a CCW thing... so 1114 gets the honor this year.

But they're Canadian, so shouldn't they visit Canada's prime minister or something?

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by Astrokid248

But they're Canadian, so shouldn't they visit Canada's prime minister or something?

What color is his house?

Googling last year, it looked like one student from each of the 3 winners went.