Einstein Field issues Handled correctly?

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Undertones

The volunteers that I dealt with were all less than helpful, they brushed me off more than once, and not once did they give us a straight answer. I realize and recognize that they didn't have answers, but the least they could do is admit there was a problem (which they did when we replayed those matches). It made it hard for anyone to believe that they fixed the problem when the problem continued. I was standing there listening as a volunteer tried to tell 2056 is was a battery issue with their bot. I mean, 2056 has had a perfect record this season in terms of up time and robot reliability. Loose connection in one match; improbable but plausible. Loose connection in 2 matches; highly unlikely but possible. Loose connection in all three matches; I mean, look at the stats and tell me that's what happened.

I've seen this over and over.

I've commented on it here (see post 204):
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...104713&page=14

The problem is that if it is power quality issues they suspect, the field folk lack the tools themselves to confirm promptly and to some extent so do you.

So it's an easy fix all to move you forward. They tell you that it's some part of the power system. They have some authority so you naturally move forward.

Course when you realize that you've exhausted all your capability, you have not satisfied them, and you're still stuck. Then you start to get the impression they are messing with you.

I've not seen anyone recently make such a recommendation just to cause you problems to a team. However, if they did you'd never get past it at a competition....no matter how hard you try at the average competition I've seen you'll never prove your point with the tools on hand.

Sometimes I think that the field personnel when increasingly confronted over the issue naturally side with the familiar and assume that it's more likely it's your problem then the field. Their observation is just as anecdotal. You could have dropped a DC-DC converter after 3 matches as we did. Not a wiring problem in sight, but a bad D-Link AP power supply none-the-less.

In any case, neither the field folk or the teams should point fingers at each other. More often than not you didn't have the tools to remove the doubt, that doesn't make the concern invalid.

[Undertones]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

I've seen this over and over.

I've commented on it here (see post 204):
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...104713&page=14

The problem is that if it is power quality issues they suspect, the field folk lack the tools themselves to confirm promptly and to some extent so do you.

So it's an easy fix all to move you forward. They tell you that it's some part of the power system. They have some authority so you naturally move forward.

Course when you realize that you've exhausted all your capability, you have not satisfied them, and you're still stuck. Then you start to get the impression they are messing with you.

I've not seen anyone recently make such a recommendation just to cause you problems to a team. However, if they did you'd never get past it at a competition....no matter how hard you try at the average competition I've seen you'll never prove your point with the tools on hand.

Sometimes I think that the field personnel when increasingly confronted over the issue naturally side with the familiar and assume that it's more likely it's your problem then the field. Their observation is just as anecdotal. You could have dropped a DC-DC converter after 3 matches as we did. Not a wiring problem in sight, but a bad D-Link AP power supply none-the-less.

In any case, neither the field folk or the teams should point fingers at each other. More often than not you didn't have the tools to remove the doubt, that doesn't make the concern invalid.

Thing is, we know it wasn't the robots. After every match we took them backstage and ran a full systems check, and they were all fine. And the bots weren't always down for the whole match. Just sometimes. They kept coming online and going offline without rhyme nor reason. We know it was not our robots.

[Undertones]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

I've seen this over and over.

I've commented on it here (see post 204):
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...104713&page=14

The problem is that if it is power quality issues they suspect, the field folk lack the tools themselves to confirm promptly and to some extent so do you.

So it's an easy fix all to move you forward. They tell you that it's some part of the power system. They have some authority so you naturally move forward.

Course when you realize that you've exhausted all your capability, you have not satisfied them, and you're still stuck. Then you start to get the impression they are messing with you.

I've not seen anyone recently make such a recommendation just to cause you problems to a team. However, if they did you'd never get past it at a competition....no matter how hard you try at the average competition I've seen you'll never prove your point with the tools on hand.

Sometimes I think that the field personnel when increasingly confronted over the issue naturally side with the familiar and assume that it's more likely it's your problem then the field. Their observation is just as anecdotal. You could have dropped a DC-DC converter after 3 matches as we did. Not a wiring problem in sight, but a bad D-Link AP power supply none-the-less.

In any case, neither the field folk or the teams should point fingers at each other. More often than not you didn't have the tools to remove the doubt, that doesn't make the concern invalid.

For argument's sake, let's say hypothetically that is what happened to 2056's bot. How do you explain the same thing happening to all the other robots that went down during the finals? I kind of don't think that all the robots had the exact same electrical problem.

[Undertones]

Well, seeing as there was no legitimate wins or losses on Einstein, it would stand to reason that everyone tied. However, I'm not sure if that would be more embarrassing for the teams or for FIRST. There is really no happy medium. Plus what would they do about visiting the White House and all that?

No matter how you cut it, it's the same garbage. The only thing we can do it figure out what went wrong and try to prevent it from ever happening again.

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by Undertones

Plus what would they do about visiting the White House and all that?

AFAIK that is a CCW thing... so 1114 gets the honor this year.

[Astrokid248]

Originally Posted by ratdude747

AFAIK that is a CCW thing... so 1114 gets the honor this year.

But they're Canadian, so shouldn't they visit Canada's prime minister or something?

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by Astrokid248

But they're Canadian, so shouldn't they visit Canada's prime minister or something?

What color is his house?

Googling last year, it looked like one student from each of the 3 winners went.

[Undertones]

Makes sense.

And meeting Stephen Harper isn't really that impressive, quite honestly. He has a house in Calgary and goes to the movies and stuff with his family sometimes. Meeting him's really nothing to write home about.

It would stand to reason that his house would be red and white, however that is not the case.

I kind of think that this is a little off-topic now.

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by Undertones

I kind of think that this is a little off-topic now.

At post #194 we'll cut you some slack; it seems to make it's way back on topic every now and then.

[cindycrews]

Robotics is the greatest organization in the world. I can't even imagine that FIRST will continue to leave the Einstein teams disillusioned, disappointed, &/or with the myriad of negative feelings they may currently possess. As Dean Kamen began to speak on Saturday, the crowds went wild! I said to my family, "Dean is the Rock star of Robotics!" I thought I was about to watch one of the greatest moments in my son's life, instead I witnessed his most disappointing moment to date. It's not about winning or losing, it's how we played the game, but it felt to me that Team 118, The Robonauts,(as well as the other Einstein competitors) didn't even get to play. I so wish we could recapture the initial excitement and redo the Einstein competition less the atrocities that played out. But short of Dean inventing a time machine, we cannot.
I challenge FIRST to some homework. Find the problem and a solution so no team in the future ever has to deal with the horror that these teams are enduring. This hasn't ended as many replay Saturday over and over in their head & continue to relive the event. They need adequate closure. Which leads me to another homework assignment: find a way to make it up to these teams. These teams have shown their gracious professionalism in an unbelievable manner and I have no doubt FIRST will do the same. An organization that stands for gracious professional won't possibly disappoint these phenomenal teams again....will they?

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by ratdude747

AFAIK that is a CCW thing... so 1114 gets the honor this year.

Originally Posted by Astrokid248

But they're Canadian, so shouldn't they visit Canada's prime minister or something?

I know this is totally off-topic, but that was one of the first things to pop into my head after "Finally!" and "YES!" when I heard 1114 won.

[demps45]

The communication issues that were seen on Einstein were not restricted to just that field. Our robot sat dead for two different matches on Newton and there was no explanation for the failure. We checked and double checked or connections and no proplems were found. We must assume it was a problem with the field. We were not the only team that experienced the same issues.

[kevincrispie]

Just as the championship this year was a learning experience for the students and teams, it also served as a potential learning experience for FIRST.

FIRST is not perfect. Don't get me wrong, I was very disappointed about what happened on Einstein this year, but the fact remains that FIRST is far from being the complete organization that many want it to be. In order to better the situation, FIRST, if they have not already, should embrace the notion of continuous improvement already exemplified by teams in its organization.

We all can learn form our mistakes, and FIRST is no different. Perhaps the reason why so many people are angered by the field issues is that we all have seen them play out all season, and on FIRST's biggest stage, Einstein, where the best and most inspiring teams in the world face off, the issues were significantly magnified. This, to me, is the signature issue. If FIRST wants STEM to be exciting and inspiring, they need to find a way to make more robots run, shoot, and score. There is little more uninspiring than toiling on a robot for 6 action filled weeks, working hard to earn a spot a championship, doing well, only to see your robot motionless on the field.

What's done is done. We cannot change the past. What we can do, however, is look to our future. The teams affected by communications issues should know that they are solid, if not amazing teams. Any team that had communication issues that may have affected their performance should come out fighting next year, and give the rest of the teams all they can handle in their quest for Einstein.

We all can learn. Even FIRST. Here's to the continuous improvement of the entire FIRST community--the students, mentors, sponsors, and yes, even the whole national organization itself.

-Kevin

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by ratdude747

AFAIK that is a CCW thing... so 1114 gets the honor this year.

I believe they handle it on a year-to-year basis. Some years it hasn't happened, and the content of the invitee list has varied.

I'd rate it very unlikely that the White House would invite 1114. Rideau Hall, maybe. (David Johnston used to be the University of Waterloo's president, and so is probably acquainted with FRC, via the Waterloo Regional.)