FIRST does have other options re Enistein.

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by Bryscus

Team 180 had comm problems and we worked through them. We lost communications in the last match as well. However, we were ready at a moment's notice to reboot the robot to get as much play time as we possibly could. We foresaw this potential problem and changed our strategy on the fly. Also, I showed some of the 118 kids how to reboot and what to look for in the event of a problem. I'm not sure if they tried it or not, but I wanted them to move almost as much as they did.

The reason our alliance played so well was that 16 could retrieve balls from our opponents and pass them to us. I didn't see any other team play such incredible defense the entire competition. One could perhaps even go so far as to say that that Bomb Squad could have been paired with any two good key shooters and come out extremely competitive. I'm sure there were a couple good robots that were individually better than any robot on our alliance, but the alliance teamwork is what made the difference.

We could also triple balance very quickly. I think the fact that we never had to shows more than actually triple balancing. I hope that hateful comments such as these aren't shared with the kids. This certainly doesn't help spread the message of FIRST.

- Bryce

I appreciate the pride you have in your ability to overcome the adversity caused by communication issues that were out of your control, but this simply wasn't how the game was supposed to be played, and that's why people are questioning the outcome. Teams spent the whole year practicing with a strategy of a 3 on 3 game, and the variation created by communication related immobility simply wasn't what most (or any) of the teams on Einstein prepared for. You can't really tell someone they lost after making them lose at something they didn't prepare for (and frankly shouldn't have had to prepare for).

That said, I don't disagree with you, but I think it's obvious as a bystander that the matches on Einstein were not entirely legitimate, and don't really reflect what teams were asked to prepare for when the game was released.

I posted about this before on another thread, so I won't repeat myself, but here's the link http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=183

[AmoryG]

No matter how you look at it this doesn't make any sense at all. Even if people believe the winning alliance did not earn their victory, it would be tremendously hypocritical to hand out awards that the other alliances didn't earn either. If we replayed all the elimination matches, it's very possible that none of the division champions would have made it to einstein. I don't believe the curie finalists played their best matches, if we replayed them the results could easily have gone either way. The galileo champs lost matches to two separate alliances. If their alliance had major com issues during their rubber matches, they could easily have lost. I heard from newton two very good alliances had comm issues at some point during eliminations. If they didn't it certainly is possible they could have beaten the winning alliance. And the archimedes champs barely defeated 67's alliance. They could easily have lost if their alliance managed the tripple balance in the final match.

All I'm saying is that no alliance is a sure bet to win it all. The archimedes alliance certainly didn't deserve to lose the way they did, but they don't deserve to be called world champions, or even finalists for that matter. They never earned that title. The only alliance that earned that title was 16, 25, and 180, just as the rules say. It wouldn't fix anything to take it away from them, and the title would be completely meaningless if it was given to another alliance. If FIRST wanted a fair fight, they shouldn't have played out the matches in the first place. They should have moved the fight to a different field, or a different time, or perhaps they shouldn't have played the matches at all. The time has passed where we can do anything about it. Handing out awards or taking them away would be just unfair, and replaying the matches would be awkward, especially if the winners aren't 16, 25, and 180. They have already celebrated their victory, and even if they were the best alliance there is no guarantee they would win, as I have explained before.

[Astrokid248]

Originally Posted by Bryscus

Team 180 had comm problems and we worked through them. We lost communications in the last match as well. However, we were ready at a moment's notice to reboot the robot to get as much play time as we possibly could. We foresaw this potential problem and changed our strategy on the fly. Also, I showed some of the 118 kids how to reboot and what to look for in the event of a problem. I'm not sure if they tried it or not, but I wanted them to move almost as much as they did.
- Bryce

From our copilot (who doesn't have an account as far as I can tell):
"that was the first thing we tried, in fact I know that I hit it multiple times, as well as an fta, we even restarted the DS in the middle of the match, but alas nothing changed"
So there you go. Thank you for suggesting it to them, it's sad that it didn't work.

[Bryscus]

Originally Posted by Astrokid248

From our copilot (who doesn't have an account as far as I can tell):
"that was the first thing we tried, in fact I know that I hit it multiple times, as well as an fta, we even restarted the DS in the middle of the match, but alas nothing changed"
So there you go. Thank you for suggesting it to them, it's sad that it didn't work.

I'm sorry to hear that was the case. We were expecting a tough match and were also completely side-swiped by the field problems. It bothered me immensely to see the defeat on the faces of some of the 118 team members after the second round of field problems. I don't think anyone on Einstein (not even the blue winners) were happy with the situation. We came to win fair and square. The Newton alliance was a formidable force indeed and deserved better than that - and Archimedes as well.

- Bryce

[PAR_WIG1350]

In 2010 we saw the "wrong outcome realized" when 469's strategy was outplayed. Just because many people expect one thing and something else happened doesn't mean that it was wrong. It just means we were wrong.

[swwrobotics]

Originally Posted by EricH

Pat is right. There were 4 alliances on Einstein, all of which had some form of communication issue. To say that one alliance should get a "recognition flag" over all the others is absurd. Reviewing videos won't help--in that case, Newton and Curie need to be reviewed too, along with Archimedes and Galileo. But it still won't help, because you play differently against different opponents.

The better way to handle this, IMO, would be for FIRST to reserve slots at the Championship for all 12 Einstein teams for next year (though 1114 won't need to use theirs due to joining the HoF). That, at least, is not without an applicable precedent. Twice in the past, a finalist alliance at a regional has been given slots at the Championship because *something* got messed up pretty badly in the regional finals.

Just wondering, does any one know what HoF stands for?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by swwrobotics

Just wondering, does any one know what HoF stands for?

Hall of Fame.

HoF is the CD shorthand. The only way in is to win the Championship Chairman's Award.

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by EricH

Hall of Fame.

HoF is the CD shorthand.

It's actually everybody shorthand. People refer to the hall of fame in sports as "the hof."

Back to the thread with you all...

[James Tonthat]

I think instead of going to the championship, we should have Dave review all the footage of the regional season. That way he can review all the facts of the match and tell us who should win the championship.

It'd save the rest of us a bunch of time off from work, school, etc. to come up with strategies and things like that during the competition.

[pathew100]

Originally Posted by James Tonthat

I think instead of going to the championship, we should have Dave review all the footage of the regional season. That way he can review all the facts of the match and tell us who should win the championship.

It'd save the rest of us a bunch of time off from work, school, etc. to come up with strategies and things like that during the competition.

Exactly. Or just use the predictive OPR calculator, figure out who's at the top, send them their trophies and call it a day. Much easier than everyone having to go to St Louis....

[lorem3k]

Another user mentioned in a different thread that he felt that the winning alliance would get a bad reputation as "the teams that only won because of comm issues". I agree that the communication issues on Einstein were terrible, but we shouldn't dismiss the fact that every robot there was a quality machine. Doing so would be extremely shortsighted and disrespectful to the teams that put countless hours of work in this season.

[AmoryG]

Originally Posted by lorem3k

Another user mentioned in a different thread that he felt that the winning alliance would get a bad reputation as "the teams that only won because of comm issues". I agree that the communication issues on Einstein were terrible, but we shouldn't dismiss the fact that every robot there was a quality machine. Doing so would be extremely shortsighted and disrespectful to the teams that put countless hours of work in this season.

I'm not saying that 4334 did not have a quality robot, they did. They worked very well with 2056/1114, especially when it came to tripple balancing (which won them the matches that mattered the most). But I would say that since my rookie year in 2008, I've always thought the alliance with the best 3rd robot won the division. 148, won it all in 2008, and they probably had one of the best auto/lap bots that year. 971 was completely overlooked in 2009, even though they went undefeated at their only regional event. 177 I thought was an exceptional mid ranged scorer and had a very nice drivetrain. 973 was a steal and should not have been the second to last pick (I remember either the 111 or 254 scouters saying they were the 7nth robot in their depth chart). And 16? The robot ranked voted #7 best robot in the world chosen as a 3rd pick is completely absurd and really says it all.

I don't even understand the logic behind saying individually, the winning alliance members weren't that good. 16 won 3 regionals, 25 won a district event and were district champs, and 180 won a regional and was a finalist at another event. All as captains or first picks. You don't get much better than that.

[Racer26]

I have no doubts in my mind that the Championship COULD have ended up with 16, 25, and 180 as Champions regardless of the field issues.

Just as I have no doubts it could have just as easily been 207, 233, and 987, or 1114, 2056, and 4334, or 118, 548, and 2194.

It wasn't a fair fight. Yes, the field issues were pervasive and affected both alliances, but didn't do so equally, and thus each match was virtually assigned a winner by random chance, thanks to the unreliability of the field.

It is absolutely unfounded to blame the teams for what happened. A few of the teams that mysteriously started having issues on Einstein had no such issues at any point prior in the season. 4334 included.

In my mind: Inviting all 12 Einstein teams to CMP 2013 is not enough. Most of them are either already qualified as of right now (16, 25, 180, 1114), or have a reasonable expectation that they will earn their way in at a Regional event in 2013 (118, 233, 987, 2056), either through winning a regional, or RCA/EI.

Inviting all 12 teams to CMP 2013, with no Registration fee? That's better. Though I would actually prefer to see all 12 teams crowned 2012 Championship Winners (complete with the invitation to the 2013 CMP), and let them pay their CMP registrations. The game played on Einstein was not Rebound Rumble, so we will never know who the true Rebound Rumble champions would have been.

[Undertones]

Every single thread regarding Einstein is exactly the same right now.

Everyone seems to think a different alliance would have won had there been no radio issues. There is, however, 2 things I think we can all agree on;

1. All the teams of Einstein earned their way there. Through one way or another, every single team on Einstein deserved to be there and was part of a very strong alliance.
2. There was in fact field problems. It's nobody's call to say who was more or less affected by the field. It's just how it is.

Now, what happened sucked, and I'm fairly certain that everybody wanted nothing more than a fair shot at the world title. With that in mind, I support and congratulate the winning alliance. Nobody should ever hold someone's accomplishments against them.

Now, there's pretty much infinite options of what FIRST could do to try to right this situation. They have already apologized and told us they would get to the bottom of what happened. The best and most reasonable option I have seen so far is an invitation to the 2013 Championship, and I would not be complaining if it was on the house. Now, what they do is ultimately up to them, and we just have to place what little faith we may have back into the system.

As I said in a previous post regarding Einstein, learn from the past and apply it to the future.

Also, although this thread may be controversial, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Please respect that.

Mac

[philso]

Since it is so likely that most of the teams on Einstein will earn their way back next year, inviting them back to compete may be superfluous.

How about inviting the team members, including those who graduate this year, to sit in front row seats to personally witness Einstien matches where no dropped comms issues affect the performance of the robots. Of course this is after a season of faultess performance from the FMS where all instances of dead robots are shown to be truly due to faults in the robot. I think it is fair to say that the FIRST community holds all the teams that made it to Einstein in high regard and would be happy for them to serve as our representatives to confirm that the dropped comms issues have truly been fixed.