FIRST's statement on Einstein

[ablatner]

Originally Posted by Astrokid248

This perspective is definitely something everyone should see, but at the same point, they should have warned us ASAP about the tornado, during the match commentary. Natchez and his brother were in the 118 temporary pit, and recognized the tornado as soon as they heard it. They got as many teams as they could convince to leave off of the field and into a windowless area. The rest of the thousands of people had no such opportunity, and if that tornado had touched down by the dome instead of Busch Stadium, it could be a very different story. We were not safe inside the stadium itself, nor would we have been safe in the hallways. I think FIRST now has another change to start working on in the off-season, and that is disaster preparedness.

The dome is probably one of the safest places to be in St. Louis, besides underground, during a tornado.

[Natchez]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

Having worked in large groups of people in a management sense, the LAST thing FIRST should have done was make an announcement. Why? Because this would have created a panic that could have easily taken more lives by a human stampede.

Just be thankful no announcement was made and nobody was injured at the event.

Originally Posted by ablatner

The dome is probably one of the safest places to be in St. Louis, besides underground, during a tornado.

Please allow me to respectfully disagree. The Jones Dome has a disaster plan in place that includes how to handle a nearby tornado and, although I can not find the plan online anywhere, I suspect that the plan calls for partial shelter-in-place and partial evacuation to the tunnels when practical. The plan should not, and probably does not, call for withholding information from the people who will be directly affected.

In my view, what should have been done is that the field level should have been evacuated to the tunnel area leaving the floor bear and the people in the stands should have prepared for the roof to blow off and the glass in the exterior to shatter .... I don't really know if that is to shelter-in-place or proceed orderly to the tunnels; that is why the disaster plan is in place. FIRST should have followed the Jones Dome Disaster Plan.

Consider this, if you were at a Rams game and it sounded like a train was about to hit the stadium, do you really believe that it is right to let the players, staffs, & others remain on the field and hope bad things don't happen when there is very good shelter only a few hundred feet away. Also, if we enacted a "hush hush" policy in these circumstances, it seems unfair that we would not warn the people who decided to go to the bathroom or get a hotdog in a highly glassed area.

The roof blowing off a dome is a real fear and when a couple of panels get ripped off, things escalate in a hurry. In a dome, being under the primary roof is the first or second most dangerous place to be located.

Now, please allow me to defend my actions. I was on the floor and heard the sound of a train about to run into the Jones Dome from all directions. Knowing that bad things were happening outside and the fact that I did not have my handy crystal ball with me, I took action to remove participants and patrons from underneath the primary roof and into an "enclosed" area. First, I identified where people could go and then encouraged them to move to the tunnels; okay, I did not encourage the Robonauts but demanded the Robonauts get a move on it. I texted all of the Robonauts mentors (we had a group set up so it only took me a few seconds to text them) and asked them to get everyone to shelter. FIRST, obviously having their crystal ball in hand, told people that everything would be okay ..... just trust us. In review, I suspect my actions were more closely in line with the Jones Dome Disaster Plan for tornadoes than FIRST's actions.

When I read things like "the LAST thing FIRST should have done was make an announcement" because we can't trust people, I wonder what America is coming to,
Lucien

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Natchez

Please allow me to respectfully disagree. The Jones Dome has a disaster plan in place that includes how to handle a nearby tornado and, although I can not find the plan online anywhere, I suspect that the plan calls for partial shelter-in-place and partial evacuation to the tunnels when practical. The plan should not, and probably does not, call for withholding information from the people who will be directly affected.

In my view, what should have been done is that the field level should have been evacuated to the tunnel area leaving the floor bear and the people in the stands should have prepared for the roof to blow off and the glass in the exterior to shatter .... I don't really know if that is to shelter-in-place or proceed orderly to the tunnels; that is why the disaster plan is in place. FIRST should have followed the Jones Dome Disaster Plan.

Consider this, if you were at a Rams game and it sounded like a train was about to hit the stadium, do you really believe that it is right to let the players, staffs, & others remain on the field and hope bad things don't happen when there is very good shelter only a few hundred feet away. Also, if we enacted a "hush hush" policy in these circumstances, it seems unfair that we would not warn the people who decided to go to the bathroom or get a hotdog in a highly glassed area.

The roof blowing off a dome is a real fear and when a couple of panels get ripped off, things escalate in a hurry. In a dome, being under the primary roof is the first or second most dangerous place to be located.

Now, please allow me to defend my actions. I was on the floor and heard the sound of a train about to run into the Jones Dome from all directions. Knowing that bad things were happening outside and the fact that I did not have my handy crystal ball with me, I took action to remove participants and patrons from underneath the primary roof and into an "enclosed" area. First, I identified where people could go and then encouraged them to move to the tunnels; okay, I did not encourage the Robonauts but demanded the Robonauts get a move on it. I texted all of the Robonauts mentors (we had a group set up so it only took me a few seconds to text them) and asked them to get everyone to shelter. FIRST, obviously having their crystal ball in hand, told people that everything would be okay ..... just trust us. In review, I suspect my actions were more closely in line with the Jones Dome Disaster Plan for tornadoes than FIRST's actions.

When I read things like "the LAST thing FIRST should have done was make an announcement" because we can't trust people, I wonder what America is coming to,
Lucien

We were up high in the stands. The loud noise we heard was hail, not high winds or tornado, nor thunder. The situation didn't seem quite that dire. Also, the event at Busch appears to be high winds, not a tornado.

Regardless, probably taking more appropriate actions would have been better.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Natchez

Please allow me to respectfully disagree. The Jones Dome has a disaster plan in place that includes how to handle a nearby tornado and, although I can not find the plan online anywhere, I suspect that the plan calls for partial shelter-in-place and partial evacuation to the tunnels when practical. The plan should not, and probably does not, call for withholding information from the people who will be directly affected.

In my view, what should have been done is that the field level should have been evacuated to the tunnel area leaving the floor bear and the people in the stands should have prepared for the roof to blow off and the glass in the exterior to shatter .... I don't really know if that is to shelter-in-place or proceed orderly to the tunnels; that is why the disaster plan is in place. FIRST should have followed the Jones Dome Disaster Plan.

Consider this, if you were at a Rams game and it sounded like a train was about to hit the stadium, do you really believe that it is right to let the players, staffs, & others remain on the field and hope bad things don't happen when there is very good shelter only a few hundred feet away. Also, if we enacted a "hush hush" policy in these circumstances, it seems unfair that we would not warn the people who decided to go to the bathroom or get a hotdog in a highly glassed area.

The roof blowing off a dome is a real fear and when a couple of panels get ripped off, things escalate in a hurry. In a dome, being under the primary roof is the first or second most dangerous place to be located.

Now, please allow me to defend my actions. I was on the floor and heard the sound of a train about to run into the Jones Dome from all directions. Knowing that bad things were happening outside and the fact that I did not have my handy crystal ball with me, I took action to remove participants and patrons from underneath the primary roof and into an "enclosed" area. First, I identified where people could go and then encouraged them to move to the tunnels; okay, I did not encourage the Robonauts but demanded the Robonauts get a move on it. I texted all of the Robonauts mentors (we had a group set up so it only took me a few seconds to text them) and asked them to get everyone to shelter. FIRST, obviously having their crystal ball in hand, told people that everything would be okay ..... just trust us. In review, I suspect my actions were more closely in line with the Jones Dome Disaster Plan for tornadoes than FIRST's actions.

When I read things like "the LAST thing FIRST should have done was make an announcement" because we can't trust people, I wonder what America is coming to,
Lucien

I was not at the event but I was in contact with several friends and family there and monitored the weather when I did find out what was happening. Quickly moving from the floor to safety is relatively easy because there is plenty of room and not a lot of people. The stands is a completely different scenario because there is tons of people and limited space/walking area. Leaving a crowded stadium at the end of a game is extremely crowded and chaotic add to that chaos, panic, and disorder and you have yourselves a death trap for smaller people. Looking back to events like hurricane Katrina the main shelter was the dome in a catagory 5 storm.

The best thing to do was let people know of the serious weather outside/keep people indoors which they did and not create undue panic/hysteria. Yes there are events where we ask, "Why wasn't a warning given/more action taken?" and other times wonder why chaos was created over nothing and someone got hurt. I'm not advocating that the weather wasn't serious, but it wasn't serious enough to evacuate the building and create a panic.

I'm sure FIRST has an evacuation plan considering tornadoes tragically ripped through St. Louis the week before the Championship last year. Some might say they felt in serious danger from where they were on the floor, others in the nose bleeds say they thought the hail sounded cool and felt not danger.

[thelemmonator]

While the events that took place on Einstein a very unfortunate it will not tarnish my view of FIRST and what the organization stands for. I plan to work as hard as I can next year to spread the message of FIRST and bring a regional to Calgary along with hopefully up to 30 new FRC teams in the southern Alberta area. As well as continuing with 4334 to have a successful second year and return to Worlds in St. Louis next year. The "Eh Team" shall unite again!

[1986titans]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

I was not at the event but I was in contact with several friends and family there and monitored the weather when I did find out what was happening. Quickly moving from the floor to safety is relatively easy because there is plenty of room and not a lot of people. The stands is a completely different scenario because there is tons of people and limited space/walking area. Leaving a crowded stadium at the end of a game is extremely crowded and chaotic add to that chaos, panic, and disorder and you have yourselves a death trap for smaller people. Looking back to events like hurricane Katrina the main shelter was the dome in a catagory 5 storm.

The best thing to do was let people know of the serious weather outside/keep people indoors which they did and not create undue panic/hysteria. Yes there are events where we ask, "Why wasn't a warning given/more action taken?" and other times wonder why chaos was created over nothing and someone got hurt. I'm not advocating that the weather wasn't serious, but it wasn't serious enough to evacuate the building and create a panic.

I'm sure FIRST has an evacuation plan considering tornadoes tragically ripped through St. Louis the week before the Championship last year. Some might say they felt in serious danger from where they were on the floor, others in the nose bleeds say they thought the hail sounded cool and felt not danger.

I'm not sure how many people are aware of this, but FIRST was in contact with the NWS in St. Louis. It's probably about the most responsible thing they could have done in this type of situation -- going to the people who know about the storm.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

hurricane Katrina the main shelter was the dome in a catagory 5 storm.

I basically agree with your post, and I am satisfied with First's handling of the situation.

I just want to point out that hurricanes and tornadoes are very different beasts.

[rachelholladay]

We had one camera connected at the Bayou Regional and never had comm issues. We added a second camera for CMP and connected for our practice match perfectly. We went on for match #1 and couldnt connect. (I must say as an ex-FTA assistant, hearing them say "Bypass 1912" was one of the worst feelings ever). After that match I switched out our radio (all of our radios were reprogrammed for CMP) and went to match #2. We connect for approximately ten second and then it dropped. The FTA said "I have no confidence in your radio" and we were bypassed again. I then received very generous help from some FTAs and control experts (in another thread I explain their extreme kindness) who ended up downgrading my radio firmware version from 1.4 to 1.2 and then we decided to disconnect our two radios. By the odd event of a balsa wood airplane coming on field we were able to replay match #1, but this time with our dual camera system disconnected entirely. From then on I never had issues connecting to the field and never replugged in either camera. The FTAs mentioned that dual camera had caused problems for other teams.

I dont know if the dual camera issue was the problem for anyone else. All i know is, my controls freshmen have a sworn vengeance against camera now..

[JB987]

Originally Posted by rachelholladay

We had one camera connected at the Bayou Regional and never had comm issues. We added a second camera for CMP and connected for our practice match perfectly. We went on for match #1 and couldnt connect. (I must say as an ex-FTA assistant, hearing them say "Bypass 1912" was one of the worst feelings ever). After that match I switched out our radio (all of our radios were reprogrammed for CMP) and went to match #2. We connect for approximately ten second and then it dropped. The FTA said "I have no confidence in your radio" and we were bypassed again. I then received very generous help from some FTAs and control experts (in another thread I explain their extreme kindness) who ended up downgrading my radio firmware version from 1.4 to 1.2 and then we decided to disconnect our two radios. By the odd event of a balsa wood airplane coming on field we were able to replay match #1, but this time with our dual camera system disconnected entirely. From then on I never had issues connecting to the field and never replugged in either camera. The FTAs mentioned that dual camera had caused problems for other teams.

I dont know if the dual camera issue was the problem for anyone else. All i know is, my controls freshmen have a sworn vengeance against camera now..

987 ran the entire season (65+/- matches including practice matches) with 2 cameras and a Kinect without any coms dropped until our matches on Einstein...

[Chickenonastick]

Originally Posted by rachelholladay

We had one camera connected at the Bayou Regional and never had comm issues. We added a second camera for CMP and connected for our practice match perfectly. We went on for match #1 and couldnt connect. (I must say as an ex-FTA assistant, hearing them say "Bypass 1912" was one of the worst feelings ever). After that match I switched out our radio (all of our radios were reprogrammed for CMP) and went to match #2. We connect for approximately ten second and then it dropped. The FTA said "I have no confidence in your radio" and we were bypassed again. I then received very generous help from some FTAs and control experts (in another thread I explain their extreme kindness) who ended up downgrading my radio firmware version from 1.4 to 1.2 and then we decided to disconnect our two radios. By the odd event of a balsa wood airplane coming on field we were able to replay match #1, but this time with our dual camera system disconnected entirely. From then on I never had issues connecting to the field and never replugged in either camera. The FTAs mentioned that dual camera had caused problems for other teams.

I dont know if the dual camera issue was the problem for anyone else. All i know is, my controls freshmen have a sworn vengeance against camera now..

We had a similar issue at Davis in which our comms were dropping after a few seconds into the match. It turned out that absolutely nothing was wrong with our radio -- the resolution of our camera feed, when using dual cameras, was simply too high, causing the memory on either the cRIO or driver station computer (I'll get back to you on which one) to overload, which resulted in packet loss and a lost connection.

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by Chickenonastick

We had a similar issue at Davis in which our comms were dropping after a few seconds into the match. It turned out that absolutely nothing was wrong with our radio -- the resolution of our camera feed, when using dual cameras, was simply too high, causing the memory on either the cRIO or driver station computer (I'll get back to you on which one) to overload, which resulted in packet loss and a lost connection.

Along these lines....... The only time in ~30 matches this year we were dead on the field, was NOT because of comms loss. We had errors that continued to accumulate on the DS. Now I am not certain the exact mechanism that caused us to sit dead on the field, but we suspect that we had filled up a buffer, HD space, or.... Whatever it was, as soon as we cleared the error queue, or robot was able to move again.

Once we figured this out, clearing the queue became part of our start up routine for every match.

After this, we also found the root cause of 2 out of the three errors that kept happening and corrected it. That reduced the number of errors being logged.

Whether this is related to what other teams were experiencing or not, I don't know. I put it out there to add to the clues that might help get to the bottom of the "comm errors".

[Bryscus]

Can the teams on Einstein post what version of firmware was on their bridge? I know that at the South Florida Regional (our second event - which coincidentally used the same field as our first event, the Orlando Regional), they downgraded everyone to 1.21, so that's what we were using. I'm wondering if anyone was running 1.4?

Also, after talking with some of the tech gurus and some other teams at SFR, it was recommended to us that we log off or reboot the laptop after every match as some of the network data was not being released. Did anyone else do this?

SPAM had a camera on board that only streamed to the DS running SmartDashboard and something like 8-12 pieces of data on the screen. We originally were tracking with a second camera on the cRIO, but the driver was better than our turning algorithm so we scrapped it at the end of the SFR.

- Bryce

[Holtzman]

Originally Posted by Bryscus

Can the teams on Einstein post what version of firmware was on their bridge?
- Bryce

1114 and 2056 both had 1.21

[Undertones]

I have a lengthy post regarding this topic already, but there's a couple things I still want to say.

The champions are champions now, and will remain so. Might as well make the best out of that situation. Team 4334 heartily congratulates the champions.

However, this was a world championship competition. The people who made the calls they did shifted the immediate blame from the FIRST to the teams in the eyes of the average spectator.

Imagine if at the Stanley Cup finals, there was a massive hole in the ice, that at times, detained half the players on the ice and kept them from moving at all. I sort of think they might stop the gameplay and fix the ice.

While everyone's gracious professionalism remained remarkably high on the floor considering what happened, it doesn't take away from this that it is completely unacceptable. I mean, if you want to break it down, the teams played a little under 20 matches at the championships, at a $5000 entry fee, we all paid $250 to get screwed by the field. I've already said that I'm not going to play the "well this would have happened if Einstein wasn't broken" game, because, well it's really not very gracious, but nonetheless I feel cheated out of an opportunity to show the world what we could do. The Maple Leaf Alliance had an amazing triple balance, and although I am biased because I was part of that alliance, I think we can all agree it was impressive nonetheless.

If you're interested, you can see my full post on what happened on Einstein here.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=182

Mac

[frdrake]

Originally Posted by Undertones

I have a lengthy post regarding this topic already, but there's a couple things I still want to say.

The champions are champions now, and will remain so. Might as well make the best out of that situation. Team 4334 heartily congratulates the champions.

However, this was a world championship competition. The people who made the calls they did shifted the immediate blame from the FIRST to the teams in the eyes of the average spectator.

Imagine if at the Stanley Cup finals, there was a massive hole in the ice, that at times, detained half the players on the ice and kept them from moving at all. I sort of think they might stop the gameplay and fix the ice.

While everyone's gracious professionalism remained remarkably high on the floor considering what happened, it doesn't take away from this that it is completely unacceptable. I mean, if you want to break it down, the teams played a little under 20 matches at the championships, at a $5000 entry fee, we all paid $250 to get screwed by the field. I've already said that I'm not going to play the "well this would have happened if Einstein wasn't broken" game, because, well it's really not very gracious, but nonetheless I feel cheated out of an opportunity to show the world what we could do. The Maple Leaf Alliance had an amazing triple balance, and although I am biased because I was part of that alliance, I think we can all agree it was impressive nonetheless.

If you're interested, you can see my full post on what happened on Einstein here.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=182

Mac

Lots of us non Canadians don't get hockey references