2012 Texas Robot Roundup

[JVN]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Look at the bigger picture. You want to achieve your goals for your team. That is what this discussion has been about. Only your goals for your team: Einstein. Nothing wrong with that. However, I've attempted to open the discussion up to a few broader goals and insights.

Isn't a system where INDIVIDUAL teams are encouraged to achieve their goals for team betterment by definition a system where ANY team can achieve their goals? Or does it just depend on what the goal is?

Let's hypothetically say we can rank all the teams within FIRST using a "strength ranking" from 1 to 10. I won't quantify this ranking (that is a longer discussion) but I'm not just talking about "on field" successes.

It seems to me... there is emphasis within the community to advance teams from skill level 1 to 2, 2 to 3... but no one seems to care if they advance beyond about level 5 (especially those who are more interested in starting more and more and more and more level 1 teams).

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic post, but this is related to something I've been meditating on.

I guess I'm surprised to hear that the event is already full enough that 3481's request has been denied. Good for TRR! I hope that is the case, and the event managers just "aren't here to help 5's become 6's." Though, that is their prerogative.

-John

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by JVN

Isn't a system where INDIVIDUAL teams are encouraged to achieve their goals for team betterment by definition a system where ANY team can achieve their goals? Or does it just depend on what the goal is?

Let's hypothetically say we can rank all the teams within FIRST using a "strength ranking" from 1 to 10. I won't quantify this ranking (that is a longer discussion) but I'm not just talking about "on field" successes.

It seems to me... there is emphasis within the community to advance teams from skill level 1 to 2, 2 to 3... but no one seems to care if they advance beyond about level 5 (especially those who are more interested in starting more and more and more and more level 1 teams).

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic post, but this is related to something I've been meditating on.

I guess I'm surprised to hear that the event is already full enough that 3481's request has been denied. Good for TRR! I hope that is the case, and the event managers just "aren't here to help 5's become 6's." Though, that is their prerogative.

-John

John,

Thanks for posting. This could be a good topic for a separate thread. How to get from 1 to 3, 3 to 5, and 5 to 10. What's the formula? Is there a formula? Can a team skip over some of the ranking steps?

Individual teams can achieve that, certainly. Regions have a harder time, especially when the regionals/Regionals are focused on the lower rankings because of the realities of the situation.

Before TRR began last season, how many years had it been since we've had an off season in Texas? Why did the off season stop? Why don't we have more off season events in Texas?

What's wrong with the event planners establishing the registration process in the manner that they see fit or that they envision? They are the ones who stepped up to fill the need for an off season in Texas and the use of practice 'bots as a second robot for a team is not a part of their plan this year.

I think your topic is a good one but I think TRR has the right to be the way it is, as decided by the event planning committee. One that I'm not a member of but that I try to support. (Please, don't anyone read anything into that statement and say I'm accusing them of not supporting TRR. That's not what I'm saying. But... I am saying that they set the rules, registration requirements, and process, and I'll support that and make my suggestions for future TRRs in the survey that will follow the event.)

To add, I think we've all heard enough from me. I'll try to stay off this thread and out of the discussion. Thanks for your patience.

Jane

[steverk]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

John,

Thanks for posting. This could be a good topic for a separate thread. How to get from 1 to 3, 3 to 5, and 5 to 10. What's the formula? Is there a formula? Can a team skip over some of the ranking steps?

Individual teams can achieve that, certainly. Regions have a harder time, especially when the regionals/Regionals are focused on the lower rankings because of the realities of the situation.

Before TRR began last season, how many years had it been since we've had an off season in Texas? Why did the off season stop? Why don't we have more off season events in Texas?

Jane

I've been very impressed with the level of play at the Texas regionals this year, especially Alamo and Lone Star. The depth of quality teams was high and these regionals were among the most competitive of 2012.

Many people and teams had a part in this, and TRR is a major part of the improvement. I have a big heart felt thank you to everyone that contirbuted last year and again this year. Your efforts are paying off.

As far as practice bots and multiple entries for the teams, I don't really have much of an opinion other than we should all be thankful and supportive of the sponsors of this competition. They are doiong a great job and have influenced dozens of teams!

[JVN]

Originally Posted by JVN

It seems to me... there is emphasis within the community to advance teams from skill level 1 to 2, 2 to 3... but no one seems to care if they advance beyond about level 5.*

Before someone beats me to it.
* - Unless you're from Michigan.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by JVN

It seems to me... there is emphasis within the community to advance teams from skill level 1 to 2, 2 to 3... but no one seems to care if they advance beyond about level 5.*

Before someone beats me to it.

* - Unless you're from Michigan.

EXACTLY, John. There's no "program" or group initiative in Texas for those who truly desire to get to all-around "Black Belt" level...

I know, even with acute desire and laser-like goals, we may never rise to the level of 148, 118, and 1477... but, our quest to get there SHOULD NOT be subordinated to someone else's "vision" of prioritizing our finite capacity/resources to elevating generic teams just for the sake of elevating generic teams...

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

EXACTLY, John. There's no "program" or group initiative in Texas for those who truly desire to get to all-around "Black Belt" level...

I know, even with acute desire and laser-like goals, we may never rise to the level of 148, 118, and 1477... but, our quest to get there SHOULD NOT be subordinated to someone else's "vision" of prioritizing our finite capacity/resources to elevating generic teams just for the sake of elevating generic teams...

I agree with your sentiment and would be upset in a similar situation, but I think you've made your point clear, and Jess has made hers clear, and you made yours clear again, and she made hers clear again... so on.

Look for other events to attend that will allow multiple robots, and/or be content with a single robot for this event (or choose to not attend). We don't go to Calgames for that reasons as there are several other California events more reasonable priced that allow multiple entries.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I agree with your sentiment and would be upset in a similar situation, but I think you've made your point clear, and Jess has made hers clear, and you made yours clear again, and she made hers clear again... so on.

Look for other events to attend that will allow multiple robots, and/or be content with a single robot for this event (or choose to not attend). We don't go to Calgames for that reasons as there are several other California events more reasonable priced that allow multiple entries.

Got it... I'll retire from this thread... THANKS, Adam!

[jessjank.]

I will repeat part of my response from yesterday evening: "the decision to only allow each team to register with just one robot had already been made in order to ensure that there are enough slots for all interested teams and potential pre-rookie teams." With regard to pre-rookies, our aim is to provide a supportive environment for these new, interested teams to get a head start with the help of veterans and perhaps place themselves in a more sustainable, successful position before the beginning of the official FIRST season... not simply to create new teams. While we have not yet officially reached capacity, based on all the interest we've received we won't be hungry for teams. The decision to allow one robot entry per team is final. It is entirely up to teams to decide whether or not they choose to participate because of that constraint.


With regard to my earlier comment as well, my apologies if my intentions were not clear. I said: "While TRR is not an invitation-only event, the hope is that we can build this competition up to eventually be much like IRI." I intended this to mean that we are trying to grow TRR to be an off-season competition that teams from all over are excited to attend, based on the quality and merits of the event. I think this is a fine and reasonable goal to set. We may not yet be at that level, but we aspire to grow and develop in that manner. As such, we always welcome constructive recommendations and feedback that we will consider and utilize in a way that will best match the values and goals of this event.

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by jessjank.

With regard to pre-rookies, our aim is to provide a supportive environment for these new, interested teams to get a head start with the help of veterans and perhaps place themselves in a more sustainable, successful position before the beginning of the official FIRST season...

Jess, 3481 Bronc Botz will help ANY pre-Rookie team get a working kit-bot ready for TRR _IF_ they make the trek to our shop.

For those pre-Rookie's not in a position (time/funding) to have a kit-bot but would like to get some competition experience @ TRR we would offer our practice bot, but with 3481 students as Driver/Operator... I cannot risk a $3,100.00 (plus $3k-$4k in donated sheet-metal labor) machine on getting broke/damaged via inexperience. HECK, we break-it enough ourselves... ;-)

So, please pass my contact info on to any interested TRR pre-Rookie teams: 210-858-8575 / michaelblake@insurancelabs.com / www.broncbotz.com

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by JVN

It seems to me... there is emphasis within the community to advance teams from skill level 1 to 2, 2 to 3... but no one seems to care if they advance beyond about level 5 (especially those who are more interested in starting more and more and more and more level 1 teams).

It seems to me the last sentence holds the flaw in this logic. These outreach programs and pre-rookie experiences are designed so that there will be no level 1 teams. Through the cameraderie and connections made through competitions, teams gain many resources more than the hunger that comes from winning and losing. They gain friends, associates, colleagues, possibly sponsors.

Events that treat teams evenly, regardless of veteran status or accolades, raise everybody up. Pre-rookies start as 3s and 4s, and together we rise. Perhaps some of these teams that start with a borrowed robot may create black-belt programs in the near future.

I am fortunate enough to be on the planning committee of an offseason event in October. We choose to focus on creating a warm, inviting atmosphere to those new to coopetitive robotics. In 2009, we had two pre-rookie teams play with borrowed "practice bots" - one of them now hosts their own annual VEX competition; the other became Rookie All-Stars. That team went on to help another team - whose first FRC experience came at our event - they became RAS as well. Another pre-rookie from 2010 - Rookie Inspiration, RAS, Regional Champs in their first year. This past year, we hosted three pre-rookies; two of them won Rookie Inspiration, one won Rookie All-Star, Regional Finalist, and Regional Winner.
I'm not arrogant enough to say our dog-and-pony show created these soon-to-be-pillar teams, but I think every experience is helpful. The more the merrier.

The TRR planning committee had a decision - should they allow one team the opportunity for more drive practice and experience, or should they allow a new team the opportunity to be inspired by the event. I feel they made the right choice.

Our team isn't as competitive as many of our neighbors on the playing field - we're getting there though. But the kids are still inspired, they still go on to postsecondary ed in STEM fields, they keep in touch and spread the mission of FIRST - that's better than a full trophy case.

[Meredith Novak]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Our team isn't as competitive as many of our neighbors on the playing field - we're getting there though. But the kids are still inspired, they still go on to postsecondary ed in STEM fields, they keep in touch and spread the mission of FIRST - that's better than a full trophy case.

Why assume a full trophy case and spreading the message of FIRST (mentoring rookies) are mutually exclusive? Team 16 supported 6 rookies this season and earned 5 banners - I am equally proud of both.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Meredith Novak

Why assume a full trophy case and spreading the message of FIRST (mentoring rookies) are mutually exclusive? Team 16 supported 6 rookies this season and earned 5 banners - I am equally proud of both.

Of course they are not exclusive; much like this year's game, balance is essential.

[2789_B_Garcia]

In talking about FRC teams, I once heard a wise man named Andy say that you can't judge a team unless you understand what it's goals are. In my few years in FRC, I'm glad to see that teams with different goals can still come together in this community and share a greater sense of connectedness. I know my team is humbled by the amount of work chairman's award-winning teams (yes, we do scout teams based solely on awards) put into helping other teams, and while my team helps out other teams when asked, I feel like we as a team are focused on getting our own house in order before we feel confident enough to take other teams under our wing. While that may sound self-serving, it is rooted in the belief that our team still has much to learn and accomplish before we will feel capable of being able to help other teams on a deep and meaningful scale.

Our team has traveled to three out-of-state events over the past few years. We have learned a great deal about the greater FRC community, and made connections with teams that run the gamut of any scale you could put on calibre of program. This coming year we plan on going to all of the Texas regionals so that we can participate more in the local community, and so that we can deepen relationships with friends we've made on other teams from here in Texas. It is my hope that in doing so, 2789 will continue to grow strong enough to someday be able to help other teams, rookies, rebuilding teams, or otherwise. Last year, the TRR was a great growing experience for us, and we are definitely looking forward to this year's roundup!

I would also like to point out that teams like 148, 118, 1477 and 16 mentor and inspire 2789 without even knowing it by not making it easy for us to beat them. :-)

[Andy Baker]

I like ice cream. If I walk into an ice cream store, I will choose one of my favorites to go into my waffle cone (or a cup, if I feel like it). Then, I may put a topping on it or I may not.

Each time someone else goes into the ice cream store with me, they never order the same thing I did. How can this be? I like ice cream, and so do they, but they don't like the same flavors! Aaaaah!

Also, there are times when the folks who run this ice cream store don't have the flavors I like. Can you believe that?!!! Although this really frustrates me, I get over this treachery and I still order something. After all, it is ice cream. I like ice cream.

Andy

[Paul Copioli]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

I like ice cream. If I walk into an ice cream store, I will choose one of my favorites to go into my waffle cone (or a cup, if I feel like it). Then, I may put a topping on it or I may not.

Each time someone else goes into the ice cream store with me, they never order the same thing I did. How can this be? I like ice cream, and so do they, but they don't like the same flavors! Aaaaah!

Also, there are times when the folks who run this ice cream store don't have the flavors I like. Can you believe that?!!! Although this really frustrates me, I get over this treachery and I still order something. After all, it is ice cream. I like ice cream.

Andy

Andy Baker is my hero. I like ice cream too; mint chocolate chip to be exact.