Progression: FLL, FTC, FRC

[karomata]

Over the last few years, FRC 1511 has began to recieve many FLL alumni. Nowadays, I believe we have almost 10 FLL alumni out of 40 students.

A strong FLL community presence for an FRC team really make the difference. Our team one on one mentors FLL teams and makes a lasting impact, causing FLL alumni to join our FRC team. It also help when the students understand the Jr.FLL, FLL, FTC, and FRC relationship. Also, when recruiting new students, if you display FLL logos or FIRST Logos on the advertisements, it may also attract FLL/Jr.FLL alumni.

I myself, am an FLL alumni who was inspired by a 1511 mentor to join our team, and now I coordinate our FLL involvment.

[Corey Oostveen]

Originally Posted by Debbie

This year, Michigan put FTC as a middle school option. Our Jr. High is now 6th - 8th. We offer FLL and FTC options here. We try to steer our experienced 7th and 8th grade FIRST kids into FTC (unless they just want to stay in FLL, which some do) and we steer our new recruits to FLL.

When we decided to do a pilot FTC program in Michigan for middle school students we were really trying to get the programs back to the way they were originally designed. FLL for elementary school, FTC for Middle School, And FRC for high school. This creates the intended flow of students and allows you to keep students and mentors around for a lot longer. This solves all the valid issues discussed in this thread. I believe that FIRST is working towards this transition after the success we had in Michigan with the pilot.

Originally Posted by btslaser

We would like to do FTC but our middle school is grades 7-8 and FTC is for grades 9-12. We are considering VEX or BEST...

The rules for all the FIRST programs only have upper bounds for the grades not lower bounds. So if you would like to do 6th-8th grade on an FTC team you can do that and like Debbie said they will compete quite well.
I have coached 4 Lego league teams consisting of elementary school students. From my experience having 4th graders compete against 8th graders is a lot tougher then having 7-8th graders compete against 9th-12th because so much development happens between 4th and 8th grade.


If anyone has any questions about running FTC at a middle school level I can give you my first hand insight from coaching 2 middle school FTC teams this year. The kids loved it and handled the challenges very well. The transition from Lego league to FTC is very seamless and my Lego alumni students picked it up right away. I strongly believe that if FIRST wants to grow it will need to go back to its initial design and stop promoting FTC as a lower budget FRC program for high schools.

[Scott_4140]

Originally Posted by Corey Oostveen

I strongly believe that if FIRST wants to grow it will need to go back to its initial design and stop promoting FTC as a lower budget FRC program for high schools.

When you say FIRST, I assume you’re talking about FRC. FLL and FTC have fantastic growth curves. If your only concern is FRC then I understand your arguments about how to promote FTC.

If you concern is to grow all FIRST programs, then you need to go where you’re growth potential lies. For FTC that’s smaller schools, organizations like 4-H, scouts, boys & girls clubs, or neighborhood teams. FRC requires more bodies and a lot more money than these types of organizations can typically pull together. FTC is a perfect fit.

Beyond that, the structure of FTC and FRC are different. Ones not better than the other. Ones not more advanced than the other. Each has their strengths and weaknesses beyond the almighty dollar. I think FIRST should actually increase their promotion of FTC and treat it as a full fledged parallel path for High School students.

The growth potential for FRC lies in reducing the cost.

[Brian Selle]

Originally Posted by Corey Oostveen

The rules for all the FIRST programs only have upper bounds for the grades not lower bounds. So if you would like to do 6th-8th grade on an FTC team you can do that and like Debbie said they will compete quite well.

On the FIRST website it says FTC grades 9-12 (ages 14-18). In the 2011 game manual it has an * by ages 14-18 and says "may include 8th grade students 13 and older who are prepared to enter a high-school program". Does FIRST post elsewhere that it's ok for younger kids?

[Corey Oostveen]

Originally Posted by btslaser

On the FIRST website it says FTC grades 9-12 (ages 14-18). In the 2011 game manual it has an * by ages 14-18 and says "may include 8th grade students 13 and older who are prepared to enter a high-school program". Does FIRST post elsewhere that it's ok for younger kids?

You are correct on this. So perhaps I am wrong but I remember reading that the age is only capped at the top. If I find where I read it I will post it.

****EDIT (I found it in this years mentor manual located on page 14 of this pdf: http://www3.usfirst.org/sites/defaul...ide_2011.pdf):

An FTC team is made up of pre-college students. While the FTC program is designed for high school students, some students in the 7th and 8th grades may be ready for a high school level program. Students cannot be older than high school-aged if they are a participating team member. College students and others who have completed high school are welcome to participate in the role of Mentor or Coach. Many Mentors find that it is best to stay within a four-year age-span for team members. Depending on the age and maturity level of the team, there may be social and developmental differences with mixed-age teams. This can work as an advantage, but Mentors should be prepared to deal with team members from a variety of levels.

So this confirms there is only an age cap on the top and the cutoff at the bottom is up to the coach/mentors discretion.

[Foster]

So this confirms there is only an age cap on the top and the cutoff at the bottom is up to the coach/mentors discretion.

So do VEX, not really a limit on the ages (since you can do VEX as a College competition).

I loved the comment about middle school kids taking on and beating high school kids. It's all about an how inspired the roboteers are. One of our best teams this year were doing their first year in VEX from FLL. They knew lots of robot stuff from FLL, this year was a metal working year. Next year? All bets are off.

And I love the progression. Our VEX teams get roboteers that know how to do autonomous programming, it's all there is in FLL. VEX gets them and teaches the righty-tighty,lefty-loosey skills and a huge dose of mechanical physics and then sent them off to FRC. Where they do power tools and much bigger robots.

What? Preaching to the already converted? Oh right, forgot where I was.

[capnrmorgan]

Working with the Girl Scouts of the Jersey Shore to build up the robotics program. We have a very successful FLL team: Electro Llamas and a sister Jr.FLL Team with a Local Expo.. Being a former FRC coach (FRC1882) and VEX FTC Coach, I hope to encourage my, all Girl FLL team to advance to FTC and FRC. We will see!
Going to Monty Madness tomorrow to encourage them!

[l0jec]

Originally Posted by Sue-San

In essence, the FTC team is comparable to a JV sports team, while FRC 25 is more like the varsity team.

Although this may be a valid model for many established FRC programs, I have an issue with this attitude in general and cringe at the thought of it being used as a model for the relationship between FTC and FRC.

For many here on Chief Delphi, there is an unfortunate view of FTC as a stepping stone to FRC. In regards to FIRST and the goals of inspiring students to take up STEM, I believe this to be a flawed and destructive perspective.
So often on this forum I read posts about the real goals of FIRST and how “it isn’t about the robots”; why then do such values seem take a backseat the moment we discuss FTC’s relationship to FRC for so many? I’ve never understood this and it bugs me.
The purpose of FRC is not to promote & grow FRC. It is to inspire students to pursue STEM careers/activities.

FRC teams should be actively promoting the other FIRST programs, not figuring out how to constrain and fit them in as feeding systems to FRC. Taking such a narrow view of FTC is a disservice not just to all the high school students currently in the program who have no intention of ever participating in FRC, but to all the other high school students who do not have a FIRST program available to them at all and to whom FTC might be a better fit than FRC.

I’ll take this a step further and state that FRC is not and should not be the only goal when we discuss the relationship of the various FIRST programs. For many organizations FTC is the better end goal and this reality should be reflected in our community here. Asking if/how teams move students “up the ladder” from FTC as the OP put it is itself a flawed & disrespectful question.

Rather than a progression of Jr. FLL --> FLL --> FTC --> FRC, I believe a more realistic and pragmatic progression is Jr. FLL --> FLL --> FTC || FRC.
As for the middle school gap, I think there should be a junior varsity concept, and maybe it should use FTC’s platform, but it should be separate just for the middle school students who are too old for FLL, but not typically equipped to compete against high schoolers.
Thus, the ideal progression would really be Jr. FLL --> FLL --> Jr. FTC --> FTC || FRC.

Originally Posted by Corey Oostveen

When we decided to do a pilot FTC program in Michigan for middle school students we were really trying to get the programs back to the way they were originally designed. FLL for elementary school, FTC for Middle School, And FRC for high school. This creates the intended flow of students and allows you to keep students and mentors around for a lot longer. This solves all the valid issues discussed in this thread. I believe that FIRST is working towards this transition after the success we had in Michigan with the pilot.

I respectfully disagree with this for the points stated above. It is not about forcing the original intent of FTC (a prototyping platform for FRC), but rather it should be about actual potential that the program has. I really hope that FIRST does not take anything from the Michigan pilot other than a new junior program is needed at the middle school level and the FTC platform would be a good fit.
Doing away with FTC at the high school level is an awful idea and would be detrimental to the goals of FIRST. I love FRC as many here do, but after 20 plus years I think we all know that it is not logistically feasible for every high school. I’m sure that as FIRST’s impact on culture is made, that may change, but to get there we need affordable programs like FTC & VRC and all these programs will have dramatically evolved by the time we get there.