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Unread 10-01-2003, 22:46
Joe Johnson's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
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Update #3 & Negative Scores...

The rules as written now seem to allow for huge negative scores.

Did FIRST really think this one through?

This is a huge confusion factor for the audience.

Here is the scenerio.

Assume the Blue alliance has twin Ramp Bots. They quickly go to the ramp, knock down the wall, plop down a couple of toilet bowl plungers and sit tight with the expectation that they have a lock on a win with 50 points in the bank...

But along comes the red alliance with Plow Bot and Tall Bot. Plow Bot methodically pushes all the containers in the blue zone into the no score zone. Tall Bot then picks up a single container and lifts it 11 Stack Height Units.

Red wins.

The score:
Red: 16 (assuming that the human players scored during the first 10 seconds)

Blue: (-10*11)+50 = -60

1 container IN
11 SHU
Multiplier 11
Base score 1-11=(-10)

This is going to be crazy for folks to understand.

Just my thoughts.

Joe J.
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Unread 10-01-2003, 23:04
JTH JTH is offline
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Two things:
1 - In the scenario as described, base score blue is zero, as the crate held by the robot as the multiplier stack is counted as zero points.
2 - Assuming there was another box still in the scoring zone, that one box would be counted as one point. It's not (B-X) anymore, as the equations have been showing, when you have an opponent supported stack. It's one point for every crate "in" the scoring zone that isn't in the highest stack.
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Unread 10-01-2003, 23:04
Jacqui Sutton Jacqui Sutton is offline
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The scenario you posted doesn't seem quite clear *maybe it's just me* but; if red team has one of their bot's in the blue teams scoring zone at the end of the game with a box raised 10 SHU high, and the blue team has only 5 boxes in their scoring zone..then it seems as if the score would be (5-11)*11 = -66... it does seem that negative scores are possible.. I hope FIRST will change this, yet again, cause as you said this would definately confuse the audience and also make one specific type of robot dominant after teams have already strategized and begun building robots without this possibility..
-sigh- guess it just makes it all the more of a challenge.
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Unread 10-01-2003, 23:10
Jacqui Sutton Jacqui Sutton is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by JTH

2 - Assuming there was another box still in the scoring zone, that one box would be counted as one point. It's not (B-X) anymore, as the equations have been showing, when you have an opponent supported stack. It's one point for every crate "in" the scoring zone that isn't in the highest stack. [/b]
in update # 3 under rule SC8 it says "the height of the tallest stack located in the scoring zone (the "multiplier stack"), measured in whole stack height units (as defined in SC9) is subtracted from the total number of containers to establish the "base score."" - how is that not (b-x)?
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Unread 10-01-2003, 23:22
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Oh... I guess I've been reading the rule wrong ever since Team Update 1 came out. I was still thinking the original rule, which considered stacks in the multiplier as zero. Now I really hope that FIRST reconsiders the virtual stack created by opponent robots.

Last edited by JTH : 10-01-2003 at 23:24.
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Unread 10-01-2003, 23:30
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I have a feeling that this is not what FIRST means. And anyway, the bot is touching the stack of 11, so it's not counted.

Love,
Team 384 Rules Nazi
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Unread 10-01-2003, 23:34
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The opponent robot in your zone does not affect the eligibility of the stack.

But, my brother suggested that this might make a great blackmail strategy, if you have a really tall armed robot and are going up against a team that is almost guaranteed a top spot. "You know, we'll give you a huge negative QP unless..." How's that gratious professionalism?
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Unread 10-01-2003, 23:39
Jacqui Sutton Jacqui Sutton is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by JosephM
I have a feeling that this is not what FIRST means. And anyway, the bot is touching the stack of 11, so it's not counted.

Love,
Team 384 Rules Nazi
it's the oppositions bot that would be touching your stack, so yes, it would actually count.

and i agree, this is definately not in the spirit of FIRST, i dont see why they would do this intentionally?
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Unread 11-01-2003, 00:02
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I asked FIRST about this, and basically got back snide comments about my questions being convoluted and me abusing the forums. I asked FIRST:
Quote:
The way the rules are currently written, if your opponent's team has x containers in their scoring zone, and you take one of their containers and lift it x wSHUs into the air, their base score is reduced to zero. A robot with a tall enough lifter could easily ensure that their opponents never got any points for containers. Is this correct?
and they replied via email:
Quote:
Rule SC8 states:

"Opponents robots in contact with containers in the alliance scoring zone will not affect the determination of the base score."

How much clearer could that be.
This lead me to believe that stacks would be measured form the lowest bin, not from the ground, but nowhere in the rules does it say where stacks are measured from. I replied to the email they sent me asking if the height was measured from the bottom container, and they replied:
Quote:
See Team Updates

Please do no abuse the Team Forum process. Please do not send e-mails directly to FIRST. Use the team forum. You received an e-mail response because I did not want to clutter the Forum with your convoluted question. If you abuse the forum, we will remove your access to it.
Has anyone managed to get a real answer on this issue?
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Unread 11-01-2003, 00:08
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Am I wrong? If red gets 16 and blue gets -60 the final score will be
red 16 +(2*60)=-104
Blue -60

Blue wins
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Unread 11-01-2003, 00:13
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from what i understand the base score is the number of boxes that are in the scoring zone that are not in the tallest stack...so if there was a box 11shu and a stack 1shu then they would recieve 11*1 = 11 points

"All containers within the alliance's scoring zone will be worth one point EXCEPT the containers in the tallest stack"
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Unread 11-01-2003, 00:16
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Well.. would this be in the best intrest of the team doing it.... because they still get 2X their opponents score in QP, so say they did manage a win with the opponents getting say -30 qp, well they would drop by 60 IF FIRST allowed negative QP scores to be applied....

that just hit me like a sack of dead drill motors....


<edit> shawn on re reading your post I realized I jsut restated what you said in a way. red would still win.. but the real winner would be blue (see shawn's post) </edit>
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Last edited by Justin Stiltner : 11-01-2003 at 00:21.
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Unread 11-01-2003, 00:19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shawn60
Am I wrong? If red gets 16 and blue gets -60 the final score will be
red 16 +(2*60)=-104
Blue -60

Blue wins

Sort of correct. Red wins, but blue gets more Qualifying Points
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Unread 11-01-2003, 00:20
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first of all, i haven't seen ya post in a while, Joe! it finally feels like a FIRST season again =-]

just a quick reason why this wouldn't be a good strat at all...

the QP for Joe's scenario would be as follows:

blue (the loser) of course would get -60 QP

red (the winner) would get 16 + 2*(-60) = -104 QP

the winning team is getting the lower QP!!!

the really needs to be addressed...

maybe the height of a robot-held stack should be measured from the lowest point in the stack... or maybe the multiplier stack height can never be higher than the number of bins in the stack...

something needs to be changed, that's for sure
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Unread 11-01-2003, 00:27
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Quote:
Originally posted by ejthe4th
from what i understand the base score is the number of boxes that are in the scoring zone that are not in the tallest stack...so if there was a box 11shu and a stack 1shu then they would recieve 11*1 = 11 points

"All containers within the alliance's scoring zone will be worth one point EXCEPT the containers in the tallest stack"
That's what I thought until Jacqui corrected me.

The original SC8 stated
Quote:
All containers in the tallest stack located in the scoring zone (the “multiplier stack”)
are worth zero points. Containers in additional stacks of the same height will be
scored normally;
but, in order to fit with the original hint equation of "y=ax^2+bx+c", Team Update 1 changed it. That statement now reads
Quote:
The height of the tallest stack located in the scoring zone (the “multiplier stack”),
measured in whole Stack Height Units (as defined in SC9) is subtracted from the total
number of containers to establish the “base score.” Containers in additional stacks of the
same height will be scored normally;
The original rule would have meant that a team could give the opposing team a huge multiplier. With the updated rule, because of the inverted parabolic scoring, we are seeing that teams can give penalties.
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