FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

[Rangel]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

Maybe instead FIRST should require every team member and volunteer to get their Amateur Radio license, and we can then just use the Ham bands

Team 842 is way on top of that. Nearly every member of our team has a ham radio license.

[kenavt]

Originally Posted by sst.thad

I also have heard the 118 uses a BeagleBone to process their camera.

I believe this is correct.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...93&postcount=9
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=19

To add to the Driver Station talk, for the first year we had an '09 Classmate that over time became more and more faulty, and is currently stuck in a rebooting loop. This may have been to due to a lack of SSD space, as numerous programs were loaded, including LabVIEW.

The replacement we used, a small Asus netbook, also succumbed to technical issues (I believe they were related to GRUB and dual-booting Ubuntu alongside Windows 7) somewhat quicker.

The next laptop we used, for all of the World Championship, was my own personal Acer. I'm running Win7 HP 64-bit, with only two user accounts - my personal one and 'Driver'. There were no problems whatsoever.

The only time we had major latency issues on the field was during an early match at Kettering in Week 1. However, this appeared to be due to our custom Dashboard on the DS sending ~50 packets a second to the cRIO. Once this code was removed, then there were no latency issues that I know of.

[JohnBoucher]

If I am not mistaken this weekend is the Manchester test of the Einstein robots and the Einstein field. After some initial announcements, FIRST has been very quiet about this.

Attn FIRST: The CD community and the FIRST community are thankful that you are working hard to understand what happened on Einstein at champs. In order to restore the confidence of the FIRST community you need to communicate to us what is being done. We initially received a few communications, but there has been none leading up to this weekends test sessions. Please make this process more transparent. We need information. We do not expect that you will publish final results after this weekend, but we need to know what is being done. Please keep us in the loop.

[Nick Lawrence]

I'm terrified that they've spent all this time, money and the like...

... and find nothing.

I too would like them to be more transparent about this process.

-Nick

[rsisk]

...even if nothing is found. Let us know

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

If I am not mistaken this weekend is the Manchester test of the Einstein robots and the Einstein field. After some initial announcements, FIRST has been very quiet about this.

Attn FIRST: The CD community and the FIRST community are thankful that you are working hard to understand what happened on Einstein at champs. In order to restore the confidence of the FIRST community you need to communicate to us what is being done. We initially received a few communications, but there has been none leading up to this weekends test sessions. Please make this process more transparent. We need information. We do not expect that you will publish final results after this weekend, but we need to know what is being done. Please keep us in the loop.

Probably the most damaging thing FIRST could do right now would be to release any information that ends up not being 100% accurate. What more can they tell us other than they're investigating and having the teams come out? What would you and everyone else here think if they said "We've determined the issue is not with the wifi routers", and a month form now they change their minds?

There's a lot they can do to investigate the issue and try to reproduce it themselves... but until they can reproduce it with team robots and setup, they can't be 100% sure they've found the issue. They need to reproduce it with the teams, fix it with the teams, AND prove that the fix actually worked before they can be sure of anything. And with an intermittent issue like this, proving it can be quite a chore.

Half of my job is to triage issues in our production system... Sometimes, it's easy. Sometimes, it's an intermittent issue that's almost impossible to reproduce reliably. Lets say you run through a test for the issue, and you encounter it only 3 times out of 10 runs. You think you understand it and apply a fix. To prove that it's actually fixed, how many times do you need to run your test? How reliable is your test if it isn't run on a production-equivalent environment? Debugging issues is difficult enough when your users interact with your system through a clearly defined interface (like a website). Debugging them when your users are writing their own custom code that interfaces with your system has to be a nightmare.

[dcherba]

I have controlled lots of items through ham radio and it still comes down to design to get reliable operation. By the way our team was founded by the ARGYL youth ham radio club in Lowell
Team 3234 Red Arrows. Currently about 1/3 of our students have their ham license.

[JohnBoucher]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Probably the most damaging thing FIRST could do right now would be to release any information that ends up not being 100% accurate.

I appreciate this, but there is a lot that can be shared without specifics. The CD community has been very vocal on opening up the lines of communication and having FIRST be more transparent. They have asked for our input on the field issues. I believe the communication can be in both directions.

[Astrokid248]

One thing that they could share with us is their testing procedure. It would be nice to know, and it could be used for educational purposes. It could also allow us to suggest further testing based on what FIRST has already looked for.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Astrokid248

One thing that they could share with us is their testing procedure. It would be nice to know, and it could be used for educational purposes. It could also allow us to suggest further testing based on what FIRST has already looked for.

Wouldn't that be remarkable? If one of their engineers actually logged on here and submitted their test plan, then posted results (but NO conclusions)?

Folks could see real-time problem solving at work, and real-time engineering.

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by Astrokid248

One thing that they could share with us is their testing procedure. It would be nice to know, and it could be used for educational purposes. It could also allow us to suggest further testing based on what FIRST has already looked for.

They should live stream it.

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Wouldn't that be remarkable? If one of their engineers actually logged on here and submitted their test plan, then posted results (but NO conclusions)?

Folks could see real-time problem solving at work, and real-time engineering.

But people on here are going to criticize them regardless of what they do.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Alexa Stott

But people on here are going to criticize them regardless of what they do.

Quoted for truth. There is a faction of the CD community that will hammer FIRST no matter what they say or do because it will never be enough. A lot of them are mentors and leaders of teams. Isn't part of any engineering project learning to deal with circumstances beyond our control? Isn't it important that we model professional behavior instead of gnashing teeth and hopping on the "FIRST fails" bandwagon?

FIRST has said they are looking into the problem. I have a feeling that the teams involved will be more than happy to communicate what they have learned from the weekend’s events. Let’s show a bit of patients and wait until after the tests have been completed. I guess a sense of entitlement isn’t limited to the students we teach…

[meaubry]

I do not believe this has to do with entitlement, but rather having a vested interest - and hoping to hear back with what was done & results.
There will always be folks that look at things with optimism and others with pessimism - that is human nature. This site is no different.
There are many people that have posted that truely want to help, while others are simply curious.
But, I think alot of folks involved in the FIRST experience (especially this year) just want to get feedback, relative to how the process of trouble shooting and root causing was done, and the results from the testing done with the teams.
Perhaps, the FIRST folks just need a bit more time to pull the report together - so, yes - patience is a great suggestion.
For now.

[pfreivald]

Giving them a chance to do a real investigation and put forth proper, well-founded, data-based conclusions. That might take a week. Or six. Or twenty.

We know they're working on it. We don't need our hands held every step of the way. I, for one, would rather they spend their effort and energy getting it right, rather than keeping us informed so we can pick apart and micromanage their processes.