Letting teams know you want to pick them

[HeadScout]

Hello ChiefDelphi!

So I have a random question. This year my team was unexpectedly thrown into the top eight, so we had to ready a pick list ten minutes before alliance selections. When it was our turn to pick, we chose the teams we thought would work best with us. The first team we chose was very rude and unhappy to be picked, but the second team was enthusiastic and happy to be picked!

Basically I got very mixed signals from both of the teams and I wanted to know. To those of you that constantly are in the top eight do, do you let the teams you want to pick know you're interested in them?

We're trying to have a more cohesive scouting team for the 2013 season. Any advice would help!

[Chickenonastick]

IMO, it would be in your team's best interest to do so. That way you can precoordinate the alliance and share scouting data for a potentially stronger alliance (your team's 2nd pick). This, however, is assuming that the team you contacted is interested.

By doing so you can also root out teams that are not interested in an alliance. It saves time and additionally prevents the slight embarrassment of being declined upon (that is, if they are within the top 8).

[bduddy]

While I do agree that it is courteous to inform a team that you want to pick them and it can definitely help, remember that you are under no obligation to respect their wishes if they'd rather not be picked. If you got to the top 8, you have every right to choose whichever team you want.... also, remember that even if they're also in the top 8 and plan to decline, inviting them anyway could help you out by preventing another top team from choosing them.

[HeadScout]

We know now to ask the teams. After all they decided to take advantage of my team for never having been in the top 8 and IMHO, their instructions were nothing but rude, snide, and unprofessional. We plan not to pick them in the future. Not something I would expect of a nationally recognized team, but oh well. It is just a game and life goes on!

[DonRotolo]

Don't take their snub personally.

This year's ranking system allowed some teams into the top 8 that perhaps wouldn't be there based purely on win-loss. (I think this is good, BTW).

A high-performing team might prefer to be picked by another high-performing team, simply because that maximized their chances of winning. If they didn't end up in the top 8, and get picked by a team perceived to be lower-performing, they may be unhappy with their (perceived) reduced chances of winning.

While it is perfectly acceptable to feel like you deserve to be with better alliance partners, it is extremely ungracious, unprofessional and unacceptable to express those feelings in a hurtful way (if at all). What this team did to you is not right, but again, don't take it personally. It reflects poorly on them, not on you.

Later, when deciding how to play the game, it could have been wise to defer to their more experienced strategy and planning performance, and let them call the shots. As alliance captain, you have that right, but sometimes they're just better at it and listening isn't a bad way to learn.

As for telling other teams that they are on your short list: Ultimately it does not matter. They cannot decline another invite and allow you to pick them instead. But getting a feel for their reaction might provide more data for your decision.

In some cases, we have gone to teams explaining that they are on our short list, but we need to see them demonstrate a certain capability that is important to our strategy. So we ask them to do that in their next match and we use that as an additional data point for our decision.

But as the saying goes, all is fair in love and war. Our goal is to pick the best possible alliance, and we don't pick "friends" because they are friends, but because they are the best available team. And (so far) nobody has taken offense to that.

Oh, and for the young teams reading this: We don't pick teams because they ask us to. We work well into the night to identify teams based on their actual on-field performance, reviewing our own match videos and scouting data. The performance claims on any scouting sheets received are ignored. If you are doing well, we see you, don't worry. But if your team isn't that good, we see that, too.

[ChristopherSD]

In Traverse City for the 2011 competition, first place was constantly switching between 201 and 1918. Before alliance selection, we had a small "meeting" and asked if they'd be content with us picking them.

In regards to picking a second team, I don't think I ever asked. They should be happy they're being picked at all.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by ChristopherSD

In regards to picking a second team, I don't think I ever asked. They should be happy they're being picked at all.

Yes, they should be. However, there's a distinct difference in where you get picked. Let's say that 1114+2056 are #1; 67+469 are #2. It's the second round. Do you hope to be picked immediately by #8 or #7, or do you pray that you slip through the cracks to the #15 and #16 picks (possibly aided by a mention to the #8 and #7 teams that you probably wouldn't accept them), so you have a chance of going with either of the top 2 alliances?

There are other reasons to ask teams if they'd accept an invitation. As noted, you can use the decline "against" them and break up powerhouse alliances. That's a risk they take by saying they'll decline. (If they decide to accept anyway--well, they should have a good reason for doing so.) You can also pre-plan strategy, third team, etc.


On the flip side (and this is for the unspecified first team picked), you can be unhappy with being picked, but if they actually did handle it the way described, then that is not a good way to handle being picked by a team you don't want to be picked by. You can decline, you can live with the acceptance--but if you're going to show your displeasure, it can drag down an alliance to know that one of the three teams doesn't want to be there. To take over an alliance from the alliance captain, without being asked to, is also not the best way to handle the situation.



On lists in general: Many teams will have three (or more) sublists. Two are short; one is long. If you're on the long list, you don't really want to be there--you want to be on the first short list. The first short list (the one you want to be on) is the list to accept/select. The other short list is the black list--you don't want to be on it. Some teams have long memories. There can be any number of reasons to put a team on a blacklist, including that they don't work well with you--but the only way to get off one is to let time take its course.

[Bjenks548]

This happens quite often in Michigan at least. At Northville, we were talking to 67 all of Saturday morning as they debated between us and another team. At Troy, 67 told us they were picking 469, so we got together with 217 well before alliance selection. MSC was even better with communication, I knew 67-469, 2054-548, and 3098-33 were all pairing up well before. Finally at Newton we were talking to 1717, 469, and of course 118 most of Saturday and even told 1717 that we were picking 118 first so they could talk with 469.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Bjenks548

MSC was even better with communication, I knew 67-469, 2056-548, and 3098-33 were all pairing up well before.

Hey Brendan,

Daydreaming about IRI already?

[rcmolloy]

Surprisingly, I ran into a great scenario as Brenden in LA this year as well as CVR. Teams came up to us and asked if we would like to have a certain alliance be broken up. I believe it was 702 not wanting to break up the combination of us/330/294. It was actually one of the better things I have seen done to make sure through the ranking systems this year that the top 8 alliances had the best teams. I thought it was really cool and really helped out the selection process for every team.

[Samwaldo]

One nice thing about telling a team that you will pick them or that there on your list is that it really makes them happy and raises there spirit!

In 2011 at Boston we were told by the #3 alliance that they were gonna chose us for sure as there 2nd pick. In the end they never did but the #1 alliance did and we won (and we crushed the 3rd alliance). We later looked back at the points each team contributed and there average. And predicted that the first 4 alliances would of won if they chose us. Sucked for the #3 alliance that never picked us

In 2012, at hartford, we were nervous because of the rankings, because we were doing Extremely well compared to our last regional, and we're the main scorer, balancing, and stadegy planner of almost all our alliances, but was constantly matched against tough alliances, or didn't get co-op, so we ended qualification at 27th place. Although we had some tricks to help triple balance, we weren't sure if we would get chosen. 237 though came up to us 2 times then to say how great we were doin and how we deserved a better ranking. They told us then that we were high up on there list. In the end they chose us!

[Jeffy]

You should absolutely let the teams know that you are looking to pick them before hand.
What I have always done is on Saturday morning I go around to all of the teams on our pick list, let them know approximately where they seed on our list (ie. first or second pick) and inquire about their robot (struggles and successes), and then see how they feel about being part of an alliance with our robot.

This year I went around to every team, took a measurement and then let the team know whether they would be invited based on triple balance possibility or not. Unfortunately, the stars didn't align in the picking for us to triple.

[EricH]

There is also another side to this--something that I forgot to mention earlier.

If someone seeded higher than you is at your pit, chances are they want to talk to you about them picking you, and who would be a good third pick if it does happen. Ignoring them is not a good idea. It's happened. At least say hello and let them know that you're a little busy with the robot and the scouts are elsewhere, can they come back in 5 minutes so you can get in touch with them--we've all been there, so they'll understand. Then you have time to figure out what you want to tell them, and go find them.

[smurfgirl]

I think it's usually a good idea to let teams know you want to pick them in advance. If they also want to work with you, it allows you extra time to start strategizing and discussing your potential third alliance partner. If they let you know in advance that they're not interested, that leaves you time to go with a backup plan and start this process with another team. It is also useful to know if a team does not want to work with you, because it is a viable and acceptable strategy to use that information to break up a potential powerhouse alliance.

[Kims Robot]

1511 has been an alliance captain every year since its inception at at least one event. We have never really pre-discussed alliances with other potential partners, though that is often because we were seeded 5th or lower, and many of our top choices were likely to be gone before we selected.

Our selection process takes hours on Friday night, and then we watch every single match Sat morning adjusting the rankings, and sometimes even the last few matches change our list, so we don't discuss things ahead of time. We have occasionally sent "scouts" to the pits to ask questions if we saw an anomaly (ie robot was dead in their last match), but never actually mention our alliance selection order. We have also blacklisted teams for various reasons, often because they were difficult or impossible to work with during matches. Even if it is the best robot out there, if our teams won't gel, we aren't the optimal alliance. It has been getting easier as 1511 gets "older" but there is often a lot to be said for the chemistry of the alliance.

We have been picked and declined, and we have also been picked by teams who were on our no or low lists and had to accept, but we always try and make the best of the alliance we end up with. Yes it can be a bit disheartening to not be in your "dream" alliance if you know you were on the list of some good teams in the high seeds, but its a game, and I really believe that any alliance is beatable with 3 working robots and exactly the right strategy.

Ultimately I think the best alliance selection strategy is to put the work into it up front. Do your scouting, know your teams, have your driveteam record which partners it likes and doesnt like, and translate that into a good pick list.