Update #3 & Negative Scores...

[Joe Matt]

So what Woodie's saying, if you don't like the game, blame it on me.

Yeah, I hate you now. Now, I know I'm 'magicly' wrong, but I don't see the refs supporting this. Last year they made calls about teathers and goals, now I think the same will happen this year. I don't think this rule was thought through totaly and I think that it will be changed.

[Andrew]

f what's being discussed here is real, it implies a rather significant change to the game one week into the design process. I thought that FIRST
said it would try not to do that again! A week of developing designs and strategies thrown out and a major increase in complexity for
spectators again?

The possibility of negative scores has been present since day one. When they rounded up to get the stack height, if you had all your boxes in the stack and the top one was sideways, you would get a negative score.

The big change is the interpretation that the stack height would be the height from the floor of the highest box, regardless of how it was supported. I think this was inherent in the rules from day one as well, there was just some confusion in the language about how the maximum stack height would be measured.

I agree that blue robots raising bins really, really high in the red scoring zone will confuse spectators. However, this should only happen if a team is trying to "take down" an opponent. And that opponent should be prepared to defend against such a move.

Andrew, Team 356

[ahecht]

While negative scores would hurt both teams, a zero score wouldn't do that much damage.

[Jon K.]

Originally posted by Andrew
The possibility of negative scores has been present since day one.

Actually no it hasn't. In the very beginning it was stated that the multiplier stack would not count when adding up the base score. Not all the bins in scoring position- the height of the multiplier stack in shu's.

[Doug]

im thinking they anticipated the possibilitly from the very beginning. That is probably the motivation behind going to the total points after 2 rounds in the finals. If it was win at all costs then it would just be a raise-the-bin-at-all-costs-a-thon. but since its total after two rounds the team could win both rounds and be eliminated.

[Jon K.]

WAIT now I have a question. In update number 3 it says

‰ Opponent robots in contact with containers in the alliance scoring zone will not affect the determination of the base score

So does this mean that the stack height won't be subtracted or that it is not counted as zero?

[Todd Derbyshire]

Ok lemme get this straight if my robot lifts "one" box lets say 12 feet in the air above the scoring zone that counts as a stack and gives them a negative score?

[bigqueue]

I think all of these rules changes probably come from someone's extreme excitement to show off and use some sort of whizzy-wig stack counting "stick".

I was wondering how they were going to make such a "stick" given all the different possibilities of heights. (and fraction of box heights)

Then, when I saw the SHU defined, it was all so simple......

[Joe Matt]

Woodie loved that stick......

I.... think I'm going to cry.....

[Jacqui Sutton]

Originally posted by Todd Derbyshire
Ok lemme get this straight if my robot lifts "one" box lets say 12 feet in the air above the scoring zone that counts as a stack and gives them a negative score?

I dont know how many SHU's 12 ft would be, but say it was 9.6 or somewhere around there, that would round down to 9. this would only give your opponent a negative score if they had less than 9 total boxes in their scoring zone..i think.

[Andy Grady]

Joe J. Wrote...

The score:
Red: 16 (assuming that the human players scored during the first 10 seconds)

Blue: (-10*11)+50 = -60

1 container IN
11 SHU
Multiplier 11
Base score 1-11=(-10)


Its absolutely senseless to even attempt to push your opponent negative. If red wins in this case, blue ends up winning in a way because blue finishes with -60 QP's and red finishes with 16 - (-60*2) = -108 QP's

[bigqueue]

Andy,

Ok....so the point isn't to push them negative....only apply enough negative points to get them to ZERO. (or even just 1 less than you)

Does that sound better?

-Quentin

Originally posted by Andy Grady
Joe J. Wrote...

The score:
Red: 16 (assuming that the human players scored during the first 10 seconds)

Blue: (-10*11)+50 = -60

1 container IN
11 SHU
Multiplier 11
Base score 1-11=(-10)


Its absolutely senseless to even attempt to push your opponent negative. If red wins in this case, blue ends up winning in a way because blue finishes with -60 QP's and red finishes with 16 - (-60*2) = -108 QP's

[Ashley Weed]

In trying to catch up in the forums after a long build day.. I am having touble figuring out this whole negative thing....

Let's say BLUE team 5555 has a stack of x number of boxes, and in addition they have y number of bins in their scoring zone, for a total of xy.

And RED team 9999 has a stack of a number of boxes, and in addition the have b number of bins in their scoring zone, for a total of ab.

if BLUE 5555 goes to the other side of the field, and raises RED 9999's stack of bins into the air.... what happens?

Does RED 9999 end up with a negative due to their bins being in the air, or does BLUE 5555 get a negatice for lifting the bins into the air??


I'm going to go re-read update 3 I guess.......

Don't forget that if your robot is in contact with a stack it doesn't count. I take this to mean that if your robot is in contact with the robot supporting a box in your scoring area, the stack will be negated. You don't have to tip the opponents robot and face dq but just stay in contact with it.

Nelson Green
Team 1108
Panther Robotics
Paola, KANSAS

[bigqueue]

Good point....but at the same time, the robot touching you is NOT on the ramp.....so if this was the point, it worked.

-Quentin

Originally posted by Nelson G
Don't forget that if your robot is in contact with a stack it doesn't count. I take this to mean that if your robot is in contact with the robot supporting a box in your scoring area, the stack will be negated. You don't have to tip the opponents robot and face dq but just stay in contact with it.

Nelson Green
Team 1108
Panther Robotics
Paola, KANSAS