IRI Rule Changes - 2012

[Chi Meson]

I would still love to see a use for the center bridge.

I'll join the chorus of "hey, I'm really OK with the rule change, and I'm not speaking for my whole team," but I don't want to back off from my early and consistent hope that a 10-point center bridge bonus (heck, even 5-points) were available to counterbalance* the huge bonus for triples.

*See what I did there? ;}

Thinking through the probabilities: the benefit of tripling through the quals (which I do find highly enticing!) is that the many strong robots at IRI will get over twice the opportunity to practice this skill. As a result, there will be a lot of failed attempts. This means a lot of flipped robots and bent stingers. The potential for costly disaster is much higher with the arbitrary alliances of the quals.

I am not "against" the rule change; I am in the category of "tweak the tweak." My personal (and strongly yet respectfully submitted) opinion remains that there should be some mitigating opportunity for a robot/driver to compensate for an opponent's 20-point surge.

[Clinton Bolinger]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

The co-op would've been negligible at IRI anyway with a 90%+ success rate, so why even have it? Teams would've been sorted win/loss pretty much.

I don't know if I agree with that. I think that MSC would be the closes thing to IRI interms of level of competition. The Co-op success rate was only 73% at MSC, which is very high but not 90%+.

I thought that MSC is was going to come down to win/loss but everyone else thought the same thing. Teams risked going for the win more then going for the co-op. I think you would have seen the same thing at IRI.

(I know this was an old post and people aren't really discussing the co-op rule change. But I thought it was interesting information.)

Also see the Co-op success rates for the rest of the Michigan events here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=105441

-Clinton-

[Zach O]

Originally Posted by Clinton Bolinger

I thought that MSC is was going to come down to win/loss but everyone else thought the same thing. Teams risked going for the win more then going for the co-op. I think you would have seen the same thing at IRI.

Even if you base MSC data off of just win/loss, your rankings within the top 10 basically shuffle. You drop/gain 2 teams.

Win/Loss Top 10

469 - 22
2054 - 20
2137 - 20
573 - 20
70 - 18
548 - 18
67 - 18
4294 - 16
2337 - 16

Compared to the Coop Top 10:

469 - 46
67 - 42
2054 - 40
3098 - 38
573 - 38
548 - 38
4294 - 38
2337 - 36
51 - 36
862 - 36

Dropping coop at IRI isn't an issue at all.

However, I'm going to leave this stat here. On average at MSC, a match was one by 19 points (19.3046875, to be exact). So on average, the 20 extra points from the triple would have changed the winner of the match. If the original losing alliance had gone for a triple and the original winning alliance hadn't gone for a triple in the matches where the outcome of the match could have been changed by 20 points, 75 matches would have been changed (approx 59% of the matches played at MSC).

If someone has a link for the long vs wide at MSC, I'd be more than willing to do basically the same thing that Joe Ross did for MSC. Since, as it is now, it's hard to draw a conclusion based off of only that data.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Zach O

However, I'm going to leave this stat here. On average at MSC, a match was one by 19 points (19.3046875, to be exact). So on average, the 20 extra points from the triple would have changed the winner of the match. If the original losing alliance had gone for a triple and the original winning alliance hadn't gone for a triple in the matches where the outcome of the match could have been changed by 20 points, 75 matches would have been changed (approx 59% of the matches played at MSC).

While this is interesting, do keep in mind that tripling is taking another ball scorer away from the game. If the tripling alliance scores even one less ball on average, than tripling wouldn't have an outcome on the average match.

My completely unnecessary 2 cents: I like the change. I really don't think that the sky is falling because of it. There are still plenty of strategic options. Reducing the triple balance by 10 points in quals would make it completely unbalanced and worthless in my opinion.

[Astrokid248]

I think this rule change really emphasizes the difference between IRI and the main FIRST organization. I remember a few years back when IRI's slogan was "Where the egos go to play", and I think that's why this change was made. In the regular FRC season, it's all about providing as many opportunities for as many teams to win as possible. This means that teams who built first class robots may not beat a rookie team with a wooden frame and an upturned bucket protecting the cRio. But IRI isn't a FIRST sanctioned event, and IRI is all about the robot. IRI is where teams get to show off, shake their tail feathers, and win for the sake of winning, instead of for spreading STEM inspiration. This rule change is all about that: coopertition allows teams who by all rights should be dead last to rank in the top 8. Removing coopertition allows the game to be won in a much more standard fashion. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is definitely something to keep in mind as we argue about this.

[Clinton Bolinger]

After running the data on MSC, assuming that a Triple Balance is successful, if 2 or more Wide Bots are on the Alliance.

26 Matches would have a different out come.

Match	Red 1	Red 2	Red 3	Blue 1	Blue 2	Blue 3	Rscore	Bscore	Win	Red 1	Red 2	Red 3	Blue 1	Blue 2	Blue 3	R#Wide	B#Wide	RTriple	BTriple	Rnew	Bnew	NewWin	Diff
1	123	2246	3572	4003	2054	217	40	55	Blue	L	W	L	L	L	L	1	0	0	0	40	55	Blue	0
2	1023	1684	2834	85	3234	3322	39	26	Red	W	W	W	W	W	W	3	3	1	1	59	46	Red	0
3	67	858	1718	3617	3538	3098	67	53	Red	W	W	W	W	W	W	3	3	1	1	87	73	Red	0
4	1025	1918	2591	3620	862	1711	36	8	Red	L	W	L	W	L	W	1	2	0	1	36	28	Red	0
5	2851	66	3601	3509	2586	201	28	21	Red	W	L	W	L	L	L	2	0	1	0	48	21	Red	0
6	503	3546	314	3656	245	2337	39	45	Blue	L	W	W	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	59	65	Blue	0
7	226	830	51	904	2767	247	21	44	Blue	L	W	W	L	L	L	2	0	1	0	41	44	Blue	0
8	573	4294	1504	3618	240	548	52	45	Red	L	L	L	W	L	L	0	1	0	0	52	45	Red	0
9	3539	141	2000	2137	2959	27	29	65	Blue	L	W	L	W	W	L	1	2	0	1	29	85	Blue	0
10	2474	302	3537	33	469	3568	42	84	Blue	L	W	L	W	W	L	1	2	0	1	42	104	Blue	0
11	308	70	123	494	107	2851	42	23	Red	L	W	L	W	W	W	1	3	0	1	42	43	Blue	1
12	3656	904	3546	3617	1918	217	20	47	Blue	W	L	W	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	40	67	Blue	0
13	3098	240	1023	3620	2586	3601	59	20	Red	W	L	W	W	L	W	2	2	1	1	79	40	Red	0
14	3234	3509	2137	201	226	3572	52	34	Red	W	L	W	L	L	L	2	0	1	0	72	34	Red	0
15	830	2054	2959	1684	33	3537	65	43	Red	W	L	W	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	85	63	Red	0
16	1711	308	2337	2246	862	141	40	5	Red	W	L	L	W	L	W	1	2	0	1	40	25	Red	0
17	314	51	107	3539	4294	2591	47	49	Blue	W	W	W	L	L	L	3	0	1	0	67	49	Red	1
18	245	2834	27	858	1504	3538	73	29	Red	W	W	L	W	L	W	2	2	1	1	93	49	Red	0
19	2000	548	3322	67	70	469	62	86	Blue	L	L	W	W	W	W	1	3	0	1	62	106	Blue	0
20	302	1718	247	85	494	503	29	40	Blue	W	W	L	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	49	60	Blue	0
21	1025	66	3568	4003	2767	573	31	34	Blue	L	L	L	L	L	L	0	0	0	0	31	34	Blue	0
22	2474	226	2959	3618	2337	3098	33	61	Blue	L	L	W	W	L	W	1	2	0	1	33	81	Blue	0
23	1711	33	2851	217	3601	3539	68	54	Red	W	W	W	L	W	L	3	1	1	0	88	54	Red	0
24	240	2591	904	1023	3234	123	48	55	Blue	L	L	L	W	W	L	0	2	0	1	48	75	Blue	0
25	1918	308	3322	503	27	51	55	30	Red	W	L	W	L	L	W	2	1	1	0	75	30	Red	0
26	469	3572	573	2767	245	1718	79	59	Red	W	L	L	L	W	W	1	2	0	1	79	79	Blue	1
27	1504	247	3656	70	2137	3537	32	59	Blue	L	L	W	W	W	L	1	2	0	1	32	79	Blue	0
28	201	107	3620	548	2834	2474	57	70	Blue	L	W	W	L	W	L	2	1	1	0	77	70	Red	1
29	67	1025	2246	1684	3509	3568	65	25	Red	W	L	W	W	L	L	2	1	1	0	85	25	Red	0
30	2586	4003	3538	302	830	862	22	32	Blue	L	L	W	W	W	L	1	2	0	1	22	52	Blue	0
31	3546	85	3617	141	494	4294	39	59	Blue	W	W	W	W	W	L	3	2	1	1	59	79	Blue	0
32	3618	66	858	314	2000	2054	41	70	Blue	W	L	W	W	L	L	2	1	1	0	61	70	Blue	0
33	107	1918	2474	3537	2851	1718	39	41	Blue	W	W	L	L	W	W	2	2	1	1	59	61	Blue	0
34	548	3539	3572	1023	226	503	61	40	Red	L	L	L	W	L	L	0	1	0	0	61	40	Red	0
35	3568	2959	3538	1711	2137	201	29	60	Blue	L	W	W	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	49	80	Blue	0
36	3234	308	67	3601	3546	573	70	40	Red	W	L	W	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	90	60	Red	0
37	314	2591	3098	302	1684	2246	25	47	Blue	W	L	W	W	W	W	2	3	1	1	45	67	Blue	0
38	217	904	2337	858	70	4003	55	52	Red	L	L	L	W	W	L	0	2	0	1	55	72	Blue	1
39	862	4294	2054	2834	141	3322	56	43	Red	L	L	L	W	W	W	0	3	0	1	56	63	Blue	1
40	85	3620	240	2767	3656	469	14	76	Blue	W	W	L	L	W	W	2	2	1	1	34	96	Blue	0
41	830	3509	1504	494	123	2000	22	49	Blue	W	L	L	W	L	L	1	1	0	0	22	49	Blue	0
42	66	33	27	1025	3617	51	23	46	Blue	L	W	L	L	W	W	1	2	0	1	23	66	Blue	0
43	247	3618	70	2586	245	2591	49	39	Red	L	W	W	L	W	L	2	1	1	0	69	39	Red	0
44	4294	904	3537	862	3572	2474	30	42	Blue	L	L	L	L	L	L	0	0	0	0	30	42	Blue	0
45	201	3539	469	217	67	3546	80	48	Red	L	L	W	L	W	W	1	2	0	1	80	68	Red	0
46	85	2137	3601	2054	858	123	43	59	Blue	W	W	W	L	W	L	3	1	1	0	63	59	Red	1
47	1718	2246	314	226	3620	1504	31	22	Red	W	W	W	L	W	L	3	1	1	0	51	22	Red	0
48	503	2959	4003	2586	27	3234	57	59	Blue	L	W	L	L	L	W	1	1	0	0	57	59	Blue	0
49	1918	141	1023	66	245	247	63	41	Red	W	W	W	L	W	L	3	1	1	0	83	41	Red	0
50	2000	3618	573	1684	494	3538	44	32	Red	L	W	L	W	W	W	1	3	0	1	44	52	Blue	1
51	3098	2834	308	3568	1711	830	55	49	Red	W	W	L	L	W	W	2	2	1	1	75	69	Red	0
52	3656	240	51	2851	302	1025	37	36	Red	W	L	W	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	57	56	Red	0
53	3322	3617	33	548	3509	2337	48	41	Red	W	W	W	L	L	L	3	0	1	0	68	41	Red	0
54	2767	3601	3234	107	2246	27	33	62	Blue	L	W	W	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	53	82	Blue	0
55	2591	247	2000	3539	904	4003	18	44	Blue	L	L	L	L	L	L	0	0	0	0	18	44	Blue	0
56	3537	1023	217	314	226	573	59	63	Blue	L	W	L	W	L	L	1	1	0	0	59	63	Blue	0
57	1684	503	858	141	3568	3620	53	25	Red	W	L	W	W	L	W	2	2	1	1	73	45	Red	0
58	3098	245	2054	201	494	548	68	74	Blue	W	W	L	L	W	L	2	1	1	0	88	74	Red	1
59	2851	862	2767	2959	3618	67	49	43	Red	W	L	L	W	W	W	1	3	0	1	49	63	Blue	1
60	70	3322	3546	240	1711	2474	35	30	Red	W	W	W	L	W	L	3	1	1	0	55	30	Red	0
61	2137	2834	302	66	1918	3509	36	40	Blue	W	W	W	L	W	L	3	1	1	0	56	40	Red	1
62	308	3572	3538	85	3656	33	14	59	Blue	L	L	W	W	W	W	1	3	0	1	14	79	Blue	0
63	469	2586	51	1504	107	3617	74	30	Red	W	L	W	L	W	W	2	2	1	1	94	50	Red	0
64	830	123	4294	1718	2337	1025	42	41	Red	W	L	L	W	L	L	1	1	0	0	42	41	Red	0
65	862	503	3601	494	217	2474	13	85	Blue	L	L	W	W	L	L	1	1	0	0	13	85	Blue	0
66	240	245	4003	2834	3509	2246	62	50	Red	L	W	L	W	L	W	1	2	0	1	62	70	Blue	1
67	1711	3234	548	3656	302	2000	67	19	Red	W	W	L	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	87	39	Red	0
68	70	904	2586	3620	27	2054	30	45	Blue	W	L	L	W	L	L	1	1	0	0	30	45	Blue	0
69	1918	2959	314	3617	469	308	47	68	Blue	W	W	W	W	W	L	3	2	1	1	67	88	Blue	0
70	1504	2591	3572	3539	67	66	23	92	Blue	L	L	L	L	W	L	0	1	0	0	23	92	Blue	0
71	1684	2137	1718	2337	3546	2767	66	63	Red	W	W	W	L	W	L	3	1	1	0	86	63	Red	0
72	141	123	201	51	3537	3618	24	31	Blue	W	L	L	W	L	W	1	2	0	1	24	51	Blue	0
73	3538	33	107	3098	573	247	45	62	Blue	W	W	W	W	L	L	3	1	1	0	65	62	Red	1
74	2851	858	85	3322	1025	830	24	56	Blue	W	W	W	W	L	W	3	2	1	1	44	76	Blue	0
75	226	3568	302	4294	1023	70	11	55	Blue	L	L	W	L	W	W	1	2	0	1	11	75	Blue	0
76	3546	3509	2054	314	862	1504	52	51	Red	W	L	L	W	L	L	1	1	0	0	52	51	Red	0
77	3539	3537	3617	3618	4003	3601	41	46	Blue	L	L	W	W	L	W	1	2	0	1	41	66	Blue	0
78	240	1718	217	308	2959	1684	50	59	Blue	L	W	L	L	W	W	1	2	0	1	50	79	Blue	0
79	1918	201	573	830	858	3572	52	42	Red	W	L	L	W	W	L	1	2	0	1	52	62	Blue	1
80	226	494	2337	107	3656	66	60	40	Red	L	W	L	W	W	L	1	2	0	1	60	60	Blue	1
81	3620	3322	2767	3538	141	247	38	35	Red	W	W	L	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	58	55	Red	0
82	2591	51	548	85	27	3568	58	26	Red	L	W	L	W	L	L	1	1	0	0	58	26	Red	0
83	2246	33	1023	2000	2851	2137	48	53	Blue	W	W	W	L	W	W	3	2	1	1	68	73	Blue	0
84	2586	503	67	2834	469	123	64	61	Red	L	L	W	W	W	L	1	2	0	1	64	81	Blue	1
85	904	2474	3234	245	1711	1025	59	46	Red	L	L	W	W	W	L	1	2	0	1	59	66	Blue	1
86	3098	217	2959	4294	66	3322	66	42	Red	W	L	W	L	L	W	2	1	1	0	86	42	Red	0
87	302	1504	2337	3601	308	201	50	34	Red	W	L	L	W	L	L	1	1	0	0	50	34	Red	0
88	1684	27	830	862	1023	107	42	68	Blue	W	L	W	L	W	W	2	2	1	1	62	88	Blue	0
89	2054	247	3572	2851	240	3568	44	31	Red	L	L	L	W	L	L	0	1	0	0	44	31	Red	0
90	2834	3618	494	469	1025	2137	52	58	Blue	W	W	W	W	L	W	3	2	1	1	72	78	Blue	0
91	3539	85	3509	3098	1918	70	36	70	Blue	L	W	L	W	W	W	1	3	0	1	36	90	Blue	0
92	1718	548	3538	314	141	904	61	29	Red	W	L	W	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	81	49	Red	0
93	2586	33	858	226	2591	3546	44	52	Blue	L	W	W	L	L	W	2	1	1	0	64	52	Red	1
94	4003	2246	3656	573	2474	51	39	77	Blue	L	W	W	L	L	W	2	1	1	0	59	77	Blue	0
95	2000	1711	2767	123	3617	503	39	37	Red	L	W	L	L	W	L	1	1	0	0	39	37	Red	0
96	3620	3537	67	4294	245	3234	79	44	Red	W	L	W	L	W	W	2	2	1	1	99	64	Red	0
97	3618	3568	3322	904	1718	3601	49	42	Red	W	L	W	L	W	W	2	2	1	1	69	62	Red	0
98	314	2137	66	830	240	107	61	53	Red	W	W	L	W	L	W	2	2	1	1	81	73	Red	0
99	85	141	217	2586	1504	2474	39	55	Blue	W	W	L	L	L	L	2	0	1	0	59	55	Red	1
100	2834	51	2000	3546	3572	3098	61	71	Blue	W	W	L	W	L	W	2	2	1	1	81	91	Blue	0
101	308	1025	548	3509	3537	2591	51	21	Red	L	L	L	L	L	L	0	0	0	0	51	21	Red	0
102	123	302	3620	2959	3539	573	42	55	Blue	L	W	W	W	L	L	2	1	1	0	62	55	Red	1
103	4294	201	3538	70	2246	503	21	15	Red	L	L	W	W	W	L	1	2	0	1	21	35	Blue	1
104	2767	67	494	4003	1918	33	65	81	Blue	L	W	W	L	W	W	2	2	1	1	85	101	Blue	0
105	27	247	2337	469	2054	3234	41	71	Blue	L	L	L	W	L	W	0	2	0	1	41	91	Blue	0
106	2851	245	226	1711	3617	1684	28	41	Blue	W	W	L	W	W	W	2	3	1	1	48	61	Blue	0
107	862	858	2959	1023	3656	548	61	80	Blue	L	W	W	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	81	100	Blue	0
108	314	1025	70	3601	141	3572	42	21	Red	W	L	W	W	W	L	2	2	1	1	62	41	Red	0
109	85	3537	2246	66	503	904	35	56	Blue	W	L	W	L	L	L	2	0	1	0	55	56	Blue	0
110	3620	3546	830	302	3618	27	55	14	Red	W	W	W	W	W	L	3	2	1	1	75	34	Red	0
111	494	3617	573	2591	3322	2137	37	42	Blue	W	W	L	L	W	W	2	2	1	1	57	62	Blue	0
112	1711	1023	51	67	2054	2337	72	86	Blue	W	W	W	W	L	L	3	1	1	0	92	86	Red	1
113	858	2474	4294	308	3509	247	55	23	Red	W	L	L	L	L	L	1	0	0	0	55	23	Red	0
114	3098	469	1504	4003	3234	2851	82	34	Red	W	W	L	L	W	W	2	2	1	1	102	54	Red	0
115	1684	201	2767	2586	3539	3656	48	53	Blue	W	L	L	L	L	W	1	1	0	0	48	53	Blue	0
116	2000	226	217	240	2834	1918	27	44	Blue	L	L	L	L	W	W	0	2	0	1	27	64	Blue	0
117	862	245	33	3568	123	1718	63	27	Red	L	W	W	L	L	W	2	1	1	0	83	27	Red	0
118	107	3509	1025	3538	2054	1023	40	39	Red	W	L	L	W	L	W	1	2	0	1	40	59	Blue	1
119	573	503	2137	904	2851	3098	48	41	Red	L	L	W	L	W	W	1	2	0	1	48	61	Blue	1
120	3656	2474	141	67	2591	830	46	63	Blue	W	L	W	W	L	W	2	2	1	1	66	83	Blue	0
121	201	4003	27	1711	85	314	48	39	Red	L	L	L	W	W	W	0	3	0	1	48	59	Blue	1
122	3546	66	1684	548	247	123	50	61	Blue	W	L	W	L	L	L	2	0	1	0	70	61	Red	1
123	494	1718	3539	858	240	2246	54	38	Red	W	W	L	W	L	W	2	2	1	1	74	58	Red	0
124	245	3572	107	2959	302	3322	57	33	Red	W	L	W	W	W	W	2	3	1	1	77	53	Red	0
125	3617	2767	70	3537	2834	862	48	37	Red	W	L	W	L	W	L	2	1	1	0	68	37	Red	0
126	3618	3620	3234	217	33	51	24	80	Blue	W	W	W	L	W	W	3	2	1	1	44	100	Blue	0
127	3568	2337	2586	1918	2000	1504	39	29	Red	L	L	L	W	L	L	0	1	0	0	39	29	Red	0
128	469	3601	3538	308	226	4294	82	60	Red	W	W	W	L	L	L	3	0	1	0	102	60	Red	0
																							26

-Clinton-

[meaubry]

Ranking determined by winning. Winning determined by accumulating more points than the opposing alliance. Points scored by balls going thru hoops, plus balancing on bridges, minus penalties.

Coop pts eliminated, and Triple balance added to qualifying matches.

Kinda late, but I think it would have been really fun to have the Coop part be included in the Triple Balance - 2/3 pts to one alliance, and 1/3 to the other. Incentive with very high risk/reward or no reward - for those matches where the alliance probability of having 3 wides is very high, yet not so, if including all 6 robots. Heck, make that score even higher than an regular old normal triple, with 3 bots from the same team.

That also keeps some opportunity for both teams to continue to score baskets until the end. Excitement and fame for all teams, if they want to try the very illusive CTB (Coop Triple Balance).

Wish I was attending, Have fun - I think that is still the objective, regardless of the rules.

Mike

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

While this is interesting, do keep in mind that tripling is taking another ball scorer away from the game. If the tripling alliance scores even one less ball on average, than tripling wouldn't have an outcome on the average match.

Wouldn't most matches at MSC have all six bots going for bridges regardless? Old way - the third alliance bot went for the co-op bridge while the other two doubled, at about the same time the new way's three alliance bots would be going for the triple.

You're essentially exchanging time spent co-oping for time spent tripling, assuming they both take roughly the same amount of time. Amirite?

It's still all about who can triple faster - who can spend maximum time scoring before breaking away to triple. If your random alliance can't triple, then it's about starting the countdown clock when the opponent breaks away, and hoping to Jeebus you can make up the difference in that time.

Can you allocate TWO bots to scoring during that triple time, and still have time to double? You might have to if the triple alliance is hella fast.

Or you get one bot balanced early as insurance and the other two keep scoring, hoping the triple alliance screws up royally. Or (if it is ALLOWED, which I'm still going to harp about until the IRI folks explicitly define what is legal IRI triple D), the third bot goes and blows up the triple while the other two keep scoring, and one balances late.

It's going to be a lot fun in most random pairing configurations, until it isn't (the no matter what you do, you're hosed scenario I've outlined ad nauseum).

Finally, count me as one who wants the lonely, neglected co-op bridge to be worth something to spice things up a bit more. We haven't had a king of the hill anything since 2004!

Speaking of 2004 - OOOH OOOH CRAZY THOUGHT - let's go retro and give teams the option to play without their bumpers....more room on the bridge...

[jwfoss]

Enough already.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Speaking of 2004 - OOOH OOOH CRAZY THOUGHT - let's go retro and give teams the option to play without their bumpers....more room on the bridge...

Speaking as someone who saw xtremachen back in 2003 for the first time at the then Canadian Regional: Must be someone from 48 suggesting a return to the pre-bumper days.

I remember that gold frame with lexan paneling jousting atop the Stack Attack ramp.

I also remember needing to sawzall a chunk of 1075's 2004 frame out because the 1" square tubing got whacked so hard it had moved ~1" into the wheel and was preventing it from turning.

[Michael Hill]

I would like to have seen triple balancing in quals, but make the score 30 rather than 40. 40 points is just too much in quals when co-op points aren't available.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

Speaking as someone who saw xtremachen back in 2003 for the first time at the then Canadian Regional: Must be someone from 48 suggesting a return to the pre-bumper days.

I remember that gold frame with lexan paneling jousting atop the Stack Attack ramp.

I also remember needing to sawzall a chunk of 1075's 2004 frame out because the 1" square tubing got whacked so hard it had moved ~1" into the wheel and was preventing it from turning.

Ahhh, the good old days.



Didn't look like that at the end of the season (we ditched the center wheels), but close enough.

I might have video of your match from the 2003 Canadian Regional up at homarv13 on YouTube. Not sure if I uploaded all of them. 1114's first ever robot is featured in one of the matches.

Little known fact - some maintenance lackeys at a local university where that robot was stored likely pilfered that robot and sold it for scrap. The bot was stolen. So sad. We don't like that place much any more.

[Racer26]

Looks like not. We made it all the way to the finals that year, with 188 and 306.

[Nick Lawrence]

The amount of successful co-op balances likely to take place at IRI really negates the whole effect the co-op points would have on the rankings.

However, the added triple balance bonus in qualification rounds is an interesting change.

But it is not a game changer.

IRI will have teams with new drivers. It's going to be impossible to practice triple balancing with all of your alliance partners throughout the qualification rounds before your matches. Even with 3 wide robots, triple balancing is difficult, case and point made here. These guys had plenty of practice with this too, and it still fell apart. (Sorry Mr. Lim, but it was the best example I could come up with.)

All of these stats people have are with veteran drivers.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you will see two, max three successful qualification triple balances.

So longbots, need not to worry.

-Nick

[Mike Starke]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

PRO:

• 67 (W)
• 68 (W)
• 234 (W)
• 341 (W)
• 868 (SQ)
• 907 (W)
• 3940 (W)
• 4334 (W)

NEUTRAL:

• 33 (W)
• 359 (L)
• 548 (L)
• 829 (W)
• 1640 (SW)
• 2056 (L)

CON:

• 48 (L)
• 340 (L)
• 461 (L)
• 744 (L)
• 772 (L)
• 2168 (L)
• 2337 (L)
• 3193 (L)
• 3310 (L)
• Secret Unnamed Team (L)

This list says it perfectly! Notice a trend? You can't deny it! Those for the rule change are all wide bots, while those against it are all long bots. This would be similar to the MLB extending the salary cap. All the Yankees fans would be totally for it (because they could afford it), while the Astros fans would be totally against it (as they couldn't afford anyone else). You would be giving an unfair advantage to certain teams, and that's what the IRI planning committee is doing here, whether it was their "intent" or not. Not a tit for tat example but hopefully you get my idea.

I can only speak for my team, but back in January, we had a quite lengthy discussion on whether to go wide/long. We eventually decided on long (but with weight distributed back so we could overhang). We came to this conclusion as you could only balance two robots for both qualification alliance bridges and coop bridges.

I LOVE the point Evan brought up

Originally Posted by IRI Website
"We are considering some minor rules changes to the 2012 FRC game, Rebound Rumble. These changes will only be slight tweaks and will not be significant. Our intent is to make a slight change that may improve the game, but not make a change that will encourage teams to alter their robot."

So they pretty much did the exact OPPOSITE of what they said they were going to do. Rule #3 is in no way a "slight change". "Minor" rule changes wouldn't have teams question the reason why they built the robot they did.

After talking with Justin, and reading Tyler's post, I'm in complete agreement.

Originally Posted by Holtzman

We're long. We're not worried. There will be many matches where all 3 of our opponents devote 40 seconds to attempting to triple and fail. We will continue to score undefended while our partners double. [/url]

Triple balancing is HARD. Teams could barely perfect it by Finals Match 3, and that was after trying it up to 8 times before then. You have to nail a triple with two teams you may never have done it with before. Justin made a good prediction that teams are going to realize how hard it is, and after many failures by a lot of alliances, teams are just going to stop trying for the triple balance during qualifications, and go back to the double. Many alliances died by the triple balance; attempting the triple when only needing a double, or just failing at the triple for a loss throughout the season(148/33 and 67/2826 for example). The triple balance during quals at IRI will be high risk for little reward. There are going to be so many great scorers there, the extra 20 points won't be that significant and in my opinion won't make the difference in too many matches.
Sorry for the rambling, IRI will be fun no matter what.
Mike