Improvements to the Dean's List. Your Ideas?

[Libby K]

This is kind of cool to read right now, since my family and I will be meeting with the 10 Championship winners this week as they come up to Manchester for the Supplier's and Dean's List Summits here at FIRST. One of my 'jobs' this week is going to be talking to the Dean's List winners, and asking how we can improve both the Dean's List award, and how the winners can help FIRST improve things as well.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

Are there things still left ambiguous that we would like to have cleared up in the selection criteria? (ie, is need considered? Is only time spent on FRC teams considered, or does time in FIRST on FLL/FTC apply? Is the selection committee interested in other volunteer activities outside of FIRST?)

Now, the only person on the selection committee that I've really spent time talking to about this is my grandmother, so I've only got one perspective. Most essays certainly include all these things - volunteer hours, other FIRST programs - and as long as it's included in the essay, it's read and considered. Nana don't skim, folks.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

The award ceremony at the World Championship Event: 2012 ceremony viewable here
• Please post a high quality video link on the FIRST website
• The event was held in the ballroom, students, parents, and supportive team members alike all crowded in the same spot. It would be great to see all of the finalists highlighted in some way before the ceremony begins. Have special seating next to the stage for all of the finalists, or at least a standing area where they can meet and network.
• While I understand there is not enough time during the ceremony to read of every name of all of the finalists, what about a pre-show video of the nominees stating their names, team, and nominating regional?
• Special roped off area, where each team of nominee can give 1 or 2 “press badges” for the event to be at the front. I had to keep asking the very tall fellow in front of my group to please allow our nominee’s mother and grandmother see the stage.

Agreed with all of these. Being able to get the finalists together would be really cool.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

Share the information with the world!
I do not see a list of the finalists on the FIRST website, other than each regional’s award section. Perhaps a link to http://itsthedeanslist.wordpress.com/ would be nice, and help build the content. I would like to read each of the winning submissions, but the essays are not posted anywhere.

Here's the only issue with that- that's a privately run website that doesn't affiliate with FIRST. There's no editorial control, and what's published there probably will not represent the actual views of FIRST the organization. So, endorsing it from the website can be kind of tricky.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

Of the 10 finalists, 9 were juniors. I do not know the statistics of the 114, but I am willing to bet that 90% of them were not juniors, I would expect something closer to 50/50, and would expect a smaller number had the above lines not been in the selection criteria.
...
FIRST should be aware that there are concerns that the emphasis is no longer on promoting the students that best exemplifies the ideals of FIRST, but on the students FIRST believe has the best chance on winning scholarships from prestigious colleges and universities.

I'm not doubting the 'consequences' as you state them, but the point of FIRST encouraging you to nominate a junior is because they want to be able to help those kids GET a scholarship or an entrance to college.

It's not at all that FIRST is promoting the 'kids with the best chance'.

Think of it this way. by the time the Dean's List is announced, seniors in high school have already been accepted to colleges, and are probably right about on the deadline for submitting their choice. (I know mine for Clarkson in '09 was May 1.) So, yes, winning the Dean's List is a substantial honor no matter what, but what if that same senior had been nominated the year before? Maybe they could have gotten an extra scholarship, or gotten into that reach school that they might not have without the Dean's List honor on top of their FIRST experience. A leader is a leader no matter what year they are in school.

If your team only happens to have senior leaders, then by all means nominate a senior. But if you've got someone who, by their junior year, is already kickin' butt and taking names as a leader on your team, giving them the Dean's List award is giving them an incredible honor AND a jump-start to their college options.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

Enlist the help of prestigious colleges. Give every school that offers a free ride tuition for all Deans List Winners a spot on the selection committee, and let each school select 1 member to the Dean’s List. This accomplishes FIRST’s desire to get the students names in front of the colleges, and the colleges' desire to pick the cream of the crop. It will increase the number of Dean’s list Winners, and all students will be offered free ride scholarships from all colleges with members on the selection committee. Everyone wins.

Yes and no. Part of why Dean created the Dean's list award is to have this be something selected by the Kamen family. That's what's supposed to make it special.

However, I do think that's an interesting idea to follow. Instead, why not take those colleges and universities that sponsor FIRST and mail them the essays for the Winners (or maybe the top 20 or 30- not enough to overwhelm them by sending 114 entries) - it'd be like college recruiters going to a sports game - but we can bring the students to them. That way, the schools get to pick from the cream of the crop, as you said, but the idea behind the award is still maintained. (I think you'd have a hard time getting schools to offer 10 free rides (that aren't for sports) at this point in the life of the Dean's List Award. 10 years from now? Maybe. We'll bring the culture change, it'll just take time.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

Change the rules back to where there is no emphasis on grade, age, gender, income, or any factors that is not “exemplifying the ideals of FIRST.” The colleges already selected the students they would like to pick, have 10 students in addition to whoever the colleges select.

I don't know where in the Dean's List documentation you see that the selection is done by ANY of those factors besides giving preference to grade. If you can show me that, please let me know. I don't really see that.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

OR at the very least… Make the Dean’s List Winners 20 students total, 10 Juniors, 10 seniors. I like this idea less, but would at least be a move in the right direction.

Based on your view of how the award's selected, this would be a good solution. However, you're operating from the viewpoint that FIRST is picking juniors because they're juniors, not because they're leaders. Remember that superstars will shine no matter what.


--

All in all, good points, especially about the ceremony. I'll pass this on as an addition to my report on what the Dean's List Winners think.

(EDIT, for clarification: I've been reading some other posts on Dean's List and I agree that the foundation of the award, from the outside, looks like they're picking juniors because they'll get into college with it. I completely agree that the award should be about leaders. And based on the conversations I've had with the selection committee, it really is about leaders. No junior is getting the Dean's List because they didn't earn it, and happen to be in their junior year. The fact remains, however, that the DLA is of 'more use' in a practical sense to a junior than a senior. So why not nominate that 'shining senior' when they are a shining junior? I know this is moot for the DLA Class of '12, but I hope some of you can see my point.)

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Libby K

However, you're operating from the viewpoint that FIRST is picking juniors because they're juniors, not because they're leaders.

Libby,

This is not to take away from the students that have been nominated or have received DL.....or DLF

The issue that people are having, (and I'm sure that has been covered in other threads) is that the definition of DL has shifted.

It was originally a leadership sustainability thing, concerned with the long term future of FIRST.

This past year it transformed into a university talent identification recruitment thing that telegraphs the value of FIRST to the public, by universities being attracted to FIRST talent.

I don't care to debate the merits here in this thread but it clearly needs to be decided what the goals are. For all practical purposes, seniors are sidelined in regards to national DL recognition. The numbers clearly state that, 90% in St. Louis.

It wouldn't hurt to involve university admission directors in the conversation if the goal is talent identification, especially considering the current structure is in part about universities validating the public value of FIRST, in addition to validating the desirability of DL students.

I cannot speak for other teams but from my perspective our local focus for the seniors is to apply our efforts to finding other avenues to support the recruitment and scholarship efforts. Our DL efforts will then have to be focused on juniors. Even though the seniors typically ( not always ) have the most experience and longest track record.

Best Regards,
Ed Barker

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by ebarker

Libby,

This is not to take away from the students that have been nominated or have received DL.....or DLF

The issue that people are having, (and I'm sure that has been covered in other threads) is that the definition of DL has shifted.

It was originally a leadership sustainability thing, concerned with the long term future of FIRST.

This past year it transformed into a university talent identification recruitment thing that telegraphs the value of FIRST to the public, by universities being attracted to FIRST talent.

I don't care to debate the merits here in this thread but it clearly needs to be decided what the goals are. For all practical purposes, seniors are sidelined in regards to national DL recognition. The numbers clearly state that, 90% in St. Louis.

It wouldn't hurt to involve university admission directors in the conversation if the goal is talent identification, especially considering the current structure is in part about universities validating the public value of FIRST, in addition to validating the desirability of DL students.

I cannot speak for other teams but from my perspective our local focus for the seniors is to apply our efforts to finding other avenues to support the recruitment and scholarship efforts. Our DL efforts will then have to be focused on juniors. Even though the seniors typically ( not always ) have the most experience and longest track record.

Best Regards,
Ed Barker

To be fair, correlation (on one data point) does not imply causation. Deciding on DL candidates in such a way only creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by ebarker

Libby,

This past year it transformed into a university talent identification recruitment thing that telegraphs the value of FIRST to the public, by universities being attracted to FIRST talent.

I don't care to debate the merits here in this thread but it clearly needs to be decided what the goals are. For all practical purposes, seniors are sidelined in regards to national DL recognition. The numbers clearly state that, 90% in St. Louis.

It wouldn't hurt to involve university admission directors in the conversation if the goal is talent identification, especially considering the current structure is in part about universities validating the public value of FIRST, in addition to validating the desirability of DL students.

I am honestly failing to see evidence of the idea that the perspective has shifted. From my seat at the Dean's List Ceremony, it looked like colleges were taking notice of the Dean's List Finalists, from the speeches I'd heard. Not that the award had been rewritten to serve those guests of FIRST.

I'm looking for clarification here. (Like I said in my last post, one of my jobs this week with having the winners up here is to help improve the Dean's List Award...) Is the encouragement of juniors to apply (because of the benefits it can have) really tainting the image of the award? I am being 100% honest when I say I don't understand.

I've written several nominations and I write for juniors that I know are going to continue to be shining leaders in their senior year, because of the advantages winning the award can bring them at that point in their high school career. And then next year, when they're seniors? I nominate a new junior who's an upcoming leader as well. I don't consider it a slight to the seniors at all. Am I the only person with this perspective?

I'd love to hear more on this, because it will really help with my perspective as we continue to develop the Dean's List Award.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by ebarker

Libby,

This is not to take away from the students that have been nominated or have received DL.....or DLF

The issue that people are having, (and I'm sure that has been covered in other threads) is that the definition of DL has shifted.

It was originally a leadership sustainability thing, concerned with the long term future of FIRST.

This past year it transformed into a university talent identification recruitment thing that telegraphs the value of FIRST to the public, by universities being attracted to FIRST talent.

I don't care to debate the merits here in this thread but it clearly needs to be decided what the goals are. For all practical purposes, seniors are sidelined in regards to national DL recognition. The numbers clearly state that, 90% in St. Louis.

It wouldn't hurt to involve university admission directors in the conversation if the goal is talent identification, especially considering the current structure is in part about universities validating the public value of FIRST, in addition to validating the desirability of DL students.

I cannot speak for other teams but from my perspective our local focus for the seniors is to apply our efforts to finding other avenues to support the recruitment and scholarship efforts. Our DL efforts will then have to be focused on juniors. Even though the seniors typically ( not always ) have the most experience and longest track record.

Best Regards,
Ed Barker

I agree, and would take it one step further. As I read the original Dean's List nomination suggestions, it seemed to me that the DL would give students an extra push toward future successes - whether that be scholarships, college acceptances, what have you.
However, the students that have been chosen were cream-of-the-crop, already going to set the world on fire but here's another trophy for your buckling mantle kids. I'm not saying these kids don't deserve recognition - most of them already had buckets of it, and absolutely let's celebrate the best and brightest. I unfortunately misinterpreted the goal as for students who have struggled and overcome to gain their accomplishments, which may be meager compared to some of their peers, but deserve recognition nonetheless. And the DL would allow them that extra push to persevere through senior year and beyond.
That's the shift I've encountered.

[wendymom]

I would like to see some seating for families. My 78 year old mother was there along with many other grandparents. They stood for more than an hour to see if their grand child would win. Not only was that way to long for her to be standing she was in the middle of a kind of mosh pit and got josseled more than once. She is also very tiny as were some of the other grandmas and I was worried she was going to take out the rude gentleman in front of her blocking the stage.

She was disappointed that all of the finalist were not recognized in some way. My suggestion is to let them all walk in at the beginning of the ceremony so the audience can applaud them. I also like the idea of a slide show while we wait for the show to begin.

One of my teams problems with the ceremony was timing. We had a deans list finalist and also one of the first matches after lunch. Our coach was her brother and our human player her boyfriend. They had to choose between missing a match or being there with her to support her. This could be solved if the ceremony was at a different time.

[Wendy Holladay]

As a mentor who has written 3 Dean's List awards and on a team that has won at the Regional Level 4 times and once, (this year) at the National level, I feel I must comment. I will leave the ceremony details to the event organizers, they understand this so much better than I ever will. Clearly in a new event there are improvements.

As to the giving of scholarships, many schools have a "blind need" policy. That means it doesn't matter how good a student is, it is based on your family's ability to pay, ie the FAFSA and CS-Profile. Every student and parent should understand this policy and how it can affect them.

Our team has always and will always nominate juniors, that made sense to us. We did it in 2010 and will keep doing it. And we always include the students non-FRC accomplishments, we think they add greatly in defining who that student is and we post all our award submissions on our website.

http://www.team1912.com/docs/dl_rholladay.html
http://www.team1912.com/docs/dl_hsorrell.html
http://www.team1912.com/docs/dl_azhou.html
http://www.team1912.com/docs/dl_ccollins.html

To give to award the National stature the founders' intended, Juniors must be the recipients. Like National Merit, by giving it to Juniors, it creates for FRC better recognition world-wide and gives those students a chance to have one more year to help promote FIRST in their region. Awards from any organization promote both the recipient and the awarding organization. All FRC awards should promote students, teams, and FIRST. If you are truly interested in changing the culture, giving this award to Juniors provides the greatest benefit to the students, the teams, and FIRST.

[Barry Bonzack]

Thinking about this more today, thought I may toss out another idea that could give the topic of conversation some more focus. This post is not directed at the current selection committee, Libby, or anyone specifically, just the general reader of this post. Lets play a game:

You are a member of the selection committee for the Dean's list. the committee has already selected some nominees to be winners, but still must pick some more, it is your job to help narrow down the list. The following students have completely equal credentials, have all inspired their community, and display leadership qualities. Rank in your mind who you believe deserves it most, and who deserves it least. Again, all candidates are completely equal, except for what is listed.

Student A is a Junior who plans to apply to one of the prestigious schools which the Dean's List criteria is referencing.

Student B is a Senior who has already been accepted to one of the prestigious schools the Dean's List criteria is referencing.

Student C is a junior who dreams to go to one of the prestigious schools which the Dean's List criteria is referencing, however indicates there is no way he/she can afford it without serious financial aid.

Student D is a junior or senior, but will only apply to a local college because he/she has family obligations who depend on him/her to stay local.

Student E is a junior or senior, and intends to major in education, journalism, business, political science, or art, and has no interest in attending any of the prestigious schools which the Dean's List criteria is referencing.

Student F is a junior or senior, but had an extremely rough freshman year of high school, turned it around, but still has horrible GPA and SAT score, and can not possibly be accepted to prestigious schools which the Dean's List criteria is referencing.


Again, everything is completely identical except for the above. This is why it is hard to be a judge, because with 144 applications, I am sure many decisions like this had to be made, and you are on a committee with people that think differently from you. Any decision you make gives a different perception of what everyone thinks the award is "actually" about, and in every circumstance someone gains, and others are unhappy. Lets brainstorm what can be done to help remedy these issues.

My opinions below just thinking out loud: only worth $0.02

Spoiler for :

If A > B Then perception is that the award grade discriminating, since there are no other factors to consider, and A does not equal B.

If C > A The perception is that award is now a financial Need based award, when the criteria no where states it is.

If any of the students D - F are selected, then it takes away the opportunities from students A-C who could have been able to use the scholarships for the prestigious schools.

If student D is eliminated, then the focus is on helping students get into prestigious schools

If student E is eliminated, it is in complete conflict with the message that FIRST is NOT about turning all students into engineers, but to recognize and inspire all students the benefits engineers have on the world. [Rant Activated] These students are the future Mark Leons, Blairs, Billfreds, Kathy and Cassie Becks. These are the future CEO's of non engineering companies that sponsor FIRST, reporters that get our name in the news, politicians that sway policies in our favor, and teachers that will one day be leads of their schools team.

The university I graduated from at that time had a FIRST scholarship, but I was ineligible because like many other FIRST scholarships, were only awarded to students who were accepted to the school of engineering. We should be creating more opportunities for the non-engineering students and alumni. [/Rant Deactivated]

If you eliminated student F, then Dean Kamen would not have been eligible on your Dean's list. Also, no where does the criteria currently state there is a minimum GPA requirement, however we are required to submit the students' GPA's with the essays. If there is no requirement, why should this be submitted?

[Wendy Holladay]

Very interesting exercise, a few new thoughts on the venue aspect first. In Atlanta, the DL ceremony was outside. Bad idea and very hot. The room at St. Louis was a huge improvement. As to having the finalists stand in a special area, ours liked being with their team during the ceremony and making the walk thru the crowd.

As to time, I noticed almost all the winners were wearing driver's buttons. That says, the finish time should be 12:30, to give everyone time to get to their matches. Or just allow more time for the ceremony and have the matches start at 1:30.

As to student A-F, getting into one of the prestigious schools is never a guarantee. Most get 15-18k applicants for 1500 slots. One of the reasons a very few get into so many prestigious schools is example, Intel Science Search. Everyone knows what that award is about and an outside committee (not a group of admissions officers) did the very difficult job of selecting, so admissions offices think very highly of that award. I think this award was created to be the equivalent of Intel Science Search. So again, its about Juniors and getting the FIRST brand in front of as many as possible.

Also I think its extremely important to read the criteria, just as it is to answer in a college essay the question asked. The award, like Woody Flowers, stresses technical expertise as well as outreach. While non-technical students can carry FIRST forward, the ones "most likely to" tend to be engineering. I would modify this to include the big 4 sciences, but that is another topic.

As to the bad freshman year, I think admissions officers and awards selection people, love a "turnaround" story. Its more compelling than "I was always a 4.0 person". As to perfect SATs, many with 2400s don't get in to the prestigious schools and I work with a women who had a 510 on her english SAT and went to MIT.

Again everyone should understand how financial aid is awarded. When someone gets a full ride to Harvard, that means their parents were poor. The prestigious schools give no merit scholarships, everyone is merit.

FIRST does list the DL winners on their site, under the CMP page
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...frc-cmp-awards

right below Chairman and Competition winners. All 10 names and their teams are listed.

As to building up resumes with awards, we do it where I work all the time. I think to say, some don't need awards because they have so many is not a valid statement. In general, awards are always a positive, even if you don't win. They are out there to inspire and motivate.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Wendy Holladay

To give to award the National stature the founders' intended, Juniors must be the recipients. Like National Merit, by giving it to Juniors, it creates for FRC better recognition world-wide and gives those students a chance to have one more year to help promote FIRST in their region. Awards from any organization promote both the recipient and the awarding organization. All FRC awards should promote students, teams, and FIRST. If you are truly interested in changing the culture, giving this award to Juniors provides the greatest benefit to the students, the teams, and FIRST.

Thank you- this is what I'm trying to say, but you say it much better.

Originally Posted by Dean's List Criteria

FIRST strongly urges teams to nominate a student in his or her junior year as a FIRST Dean’s List Semi-Finalist. While FIRST judges will consider any student nominated by their team as a FIRST Dean’s List Semi-Finalist, this year judges will give preference to students in their junior year when they make their selections to maximize the impact of the FIRST Dean’s List Award for students and colleges/universities supporting FIRST.

Now, on to Barry's.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

Student C is a junior who dreams to go to one of the prestigious schools which the Dean's List criteria is referencing, however indicates there is no way he/she can afford it without serious financial aid.

Unless you write it into your essay, nobody knows your kid's financial situation. And why, oh why, would you write that into your essay? Spend that word count extolling their virtues instead. I get mentioning that they come from a certain background, as context, but writing out how they can't afford college? The Dean's List is not a scholarship. It can lead to them, but there is a whole page of FIRST Scholarships they can apply for.

The Dean's List Award is to celebrate outstanding leadership. I agree that maybe the focus on technical expertise is a little too much (as a Communications & Digital Media major, I wouldn't say that I've -failed- the mission of FIRST, because I found my passion.) So, yes, maybe that wording gets changed a little.

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

Also, no where does the criteria currently state there is a minimum GPA requirement, however we are required to submit the students' GPA's with the essays. If there is no requirement, why should this be submitted?

I agree, I don't like submitting GPA's either, but my thought is it's there because then you don't have to spend half your essay explaining their situation. It gives context, and maybe even helps explain a turnaround. As Wendy said,

Originally Posted by Wendy Holladay

As to the bad freshman year, I think admissions officers and awards selection people, love a "turnaround" story. Its more compelling than "I was always a 4.0 person". As to perfect SATs, many with 2400s don't get in to the prestigious schools and I work with a women who had a 510 on her english SAT and went to MIT.

So rather than , I'd love to see some additional improvements/suggestions to the Dean's List award.

I'll leave you with the Dean's List criteria to think about.

Originally Posted by Dean's List Criteria

The students who earn FIRST Dean’s List Award status as either a Semi-Finalist, Finalist or Winner will not only be great examples of student leaders who have led their teams and communities to increased awareness for FIRST and its mission all while achieving personal technical expertise and accomplishment, but it is FIRST’s intention that they will continue on, post-award, as great leaders of FIRST’s ever growing student alumni and as advocates of FIRST.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Libby K

Part of why Dean created the Dean's list award is to have this be something selected by the Kamen family. That's what's supposed to make it special.

Simple solution: Need more Kamens.

OK, seriously: I competely agree with and support the stated purposes of the Dean's List award. Perhaps some of the details can be improved - placing the event more front & center, for example - but none of the purported flaws are fatal.

I like this thread because it helps bring out topics / problems in the program that people may wish to bring to the attention of decision-makers. But please be sure that comments remain constructive - your opinions are indisputable, but beware of opinions disguised as facts. In other words take extra pains to argue thoughtfully, or risk having your opinions dismissed.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

Simple solution: Need more Kamens.

Haaaaaaaa. Yeah. Sorry, I'm the only one of my generation. I guess we're a rare breed.

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

I like this thread because it helps bring out topics / problems in the program that people may wish to bring to the attention of decision-makers. But please be sure that comments remain constructive - your opinions are indisputable, but beware of opinions disguised as facts. In other words take extra pains to argue thoughtfully, or risk having your opinions dismissed.

Can we please make that statement a general disclaimer for CD? Thanks.

[Cynette]

I really like the Dean's List Award.

To go through some of the points discussed in this thread...

Awards Ceremony - At Regionals - It will be nice when it settles into a routine. The first two years the award was given between the EI and the RCA award at the regionals we attended. This year at FLR they tied it with a special presentation and speaker which moved it to Saturday morning. I thought the presentation was wonderful and the special time slot befitting the award. However we had told the parents of the nominees that it would be Saturday afternoon, not morning. By luck, the parents were there of the student from our team who was selected as a finalist.

At Championships - I wish there was more time to make the presentation and that it didn't get sandwiched between matches making it difficult for teams to attend if they have a last match or first match surrounding the lunch break. But I wish that about many of the events at Championships. Everything is shoehorned in and that's the way it will stay as long as the whole event is a Robot Competition. I like that it is a separate event from the final awards ceremony, but I wish that they would bring all the finalists up for a photo op before making the announcement. I think the students enjoyed the party atmosphere and the ice cream was a great touch this year!

Someone mentioned having the students have a chance to get together at Championships. Every year so far there has been a grassroots effort to have the students meet, two years as part of Robo Prom and this year as a side event to the All Rookie Meet and Greet. Students seem all gung ho about attending, but only a few make it. I think the reality of the Championship schedules hit and the students realize how hard it is to add just one more thing to their schedules, especially if the students are the team leaders, on drive team, in pit crew, etc. And they often are, that's what makes them stand our in their teams to be the Dean's List Nominee.

As far as the criteria go, I think it is well written and developed. At least for our team as we've had a Dean's List finalist in each of the three years. We have always selected Juniors. To our mentors, the benefits of the award to the Juniors outweighs the benefits to the Seniors and has since the beginning. If we felt that we did not have a junior who met the criteria, we would certainly nominate a senior, but our preference has always been a junior. Our nominees have always had a level of technical expertise to include in the nomination essay, because our team stresses the technical aspects balanced with the leadership and the non technical aspects of team management, so we haven't hit a concern over nominating a non tech student for the award.

The only part of the nomination process that we do not like is including the student's GPAs. Most of our Juniors do not know their GPAs because they are just beginning the college application process. To get the GPAs we have to have the students interested on being nominated for the award request that their GPAs be released to the mentors preparing the essays. But it is good practice for the students to prepare for prepping college and scholarship applications, so we cope!

I don't really have an opinion on the impact of the colleges that have specifically worked with Dean and are showing an interest in the Dean's List Students other than I thought it was a great opportunity for the students to get more exposure!

I believe that all of the teams love their Dean's List nominees! I've heard other teams mentors tell me stories about their nominees and everyone of them sounds like they would be an amazing representative of FIRST. I do not envy those who select the Finalists at regionals and I would believe that that the Kamen Family and the other judges have a great challenge each year to select only 10 of the finalists as the Dean's List winners.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Wendy Holladay

All FRC awards should promote students, teams, and FIRST.

To make that a stated goal seems disingenuous to me. Giving an award to someone to promote yourself? Obviously it has precedence -- Alfred Nobel started the Nobel Prizes to clear his name as the inventor of dynamite, but that doesn't make it right. To me, it changes the message from "Wow! You're pretty great!" to "Wow, you're pretty great and you'll make a fantastic billboard for our program!" Inspiration is not even close to a zero sum game, but sometimes I am not convinced FIRST feels the same way.

Originally Posted by Libby K

The Dean's List Award is to celebrate outstanding leadership.

Originally Posted by "Dean's List Criteria

While FIRST judges will consider any student nominated by their team as a FIRST Dean’s List Semi-Finalist, this year judges will give preference to students in their junior year when they make their selections to maximize the impact of the FIRST Dean’s List Award for students and colleges/universities supporting FIRST.”

I don't think exemplary leadership requires wanting a college education. Many of the key people on my high school FRC team didn't go to college. By the sounds of this, if they don't plan on going to college are they not as highly considered? A fairly significant number of my mentors and friends growing up didn't go to college and are still really great people making a real impact on the world. They can still be community and workplace leaders. College worked out pretty well for me, but I totally get and respect people who don't do college. As a sidenote, I have seen many an engineering college student disrespect a mechanic and promptly get severely shown up.

And to be honest I think one of the problems is that so many people are so concerned about going to a prestigious school. I paid a lot of money to go to one. I got a really good education, made a bunch of great friends, acquired a relatively modest mountain of debt, and when I graduated I got a job that I'm really excited to get up for in the morning. But, I had many friends go to not prestigious schools, and they still got a really good education, a bunch of great friends, and jobs they are also really excited to get up for in the morning.

College isn't a destination -- it's just a stop along the way for some. As long as your school is accredited chances are you can find like minded people and do really cool independent projects that will impress your future employers a heck of a lot more than even the most challenging class you could take at MIT. (Worth noting that MIT kids tend to have awesome independent projects)

I really liked FIRST because we drew upon a wide variety of people. Our technical mentors included a commercial fisherman, a factory manager, a postmaster, a (boat) pilot, a retired engineer who worked rewiring Apollo after the Apollo 1 fire, another retired engineer who built a hydro power plant in a big stream on his property to keep himself entertained, a landscaper, and a long list of others. We had students from honors/AP, and kids who were on the technical track and spent all their time at the vocational school. And we got along great, and we were all a lot better off for it.

To cast that off and focus an award on the college bound is a misstep I think. I would hate to see the Dean's list become just another award kids strive for to look good on college applications (not that this is currently the case). Because the real secret to looking great on college applications is not caring about college applications and just being awesome. As Don says, that is just my opinion.

As a sidenote, I think Barry's situation is an interesting brainteaser, but extremely unlikely to actually happen. In the real world I do not think you will ever have a case where 6 students are exactly matched in terms of everything except where they want to go to school. In my mind, if their leadership qualities and experiences are exactly matched then they all deserve the award an equal amount, regardless of what they want to do in the future. It'd be a pretty crowded stage.

I am sure some of you will disagree with me, looking forward to the discourse.

[JaneYoung]

I would just like to remind those who are forming new improvements to follow the KISS method. My personal opinion is that there is too much overthinking going into this discussion.

I, personally, don't care if a Junior is not nominated. I also don't care what the future of the nominee holds for the nominee at the time we are making the nomination. I care about the value of the contributions the student has made to the team, helping to build and strengthen the FIRST program and STEM initiatives in the local community and potentially impacting the regional, national, and global communities as well. (The Dean's List is recognized at the Championship level which is not the National level. The Championship level recognizes the candidates that qualify from around the world. A National level would recognize only the candidates from the nation.)

By not caring about the graduating class a nominee is in or what happens after high school graduation, I mean - I'm not going to weigh and measure the nominee's value by the school he or she applies to or the choices he or she makes after high school. That is not going to play into my part of helping to honor the inspirational work and contributions of a student.

When you start moving beyond that and into college selection possibilities, you begin dabbling in politics. That is not what I think the Dean's List Award is about or should be about.

Jane