What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?

[Arefin Bari]

I know this isn't specifically for the KOP but it would be nice to mention to FIRST to not make crazy bumper rules where teams spend half of their practice day just figuring out how to get numbers on their bumper. Thanks.

[Mr. Lim]

Bumper backing strips, pool noodles, red and blue cordura, white paint markers

A lot of teams still have difficulty getting their bumpers together legally.

Including the the raw materials in the kit will help immensely!

It will also give the KoP more "completeness" where a team can truly field a 100% competition legal robot using only parts from the KoP.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

Well, I'll say what I WOULDN'T like in the KoP.

Software.

Make all software downloadable via a secure site.

OK, so maybe include a copy in the KoP, but make all software available online. It's really frustrating when your team loses a piece of software and has to get a copy from a local team.

All the way across the state of Ohio is a "local team"?

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

The suggestion of powertools is a good one as well.

Just +0.02

Sawzalls and circular saws on the robot!

I second including loose Anderson battery connector kits in the KOP. As a team that rarely, if ever, uses the pre-made pigtails, this would save us some money and headache.

I've been lobbying for this option (which cannot fully replace the pre-made cables - many rookies and other teams likely use them) with the FIRST folks for a while and will continue to do so. Would be a GREAT addition to FIRST Choice.

[Joe Ross]

JVN

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

JVN

"You're gonna need a bigger boat tote" -Brody

[Dale]

For what it's worth I've always thought FIRST should get out of the KOP business. None of the other programs have such a thing. I'd much rather have a lower registration fee and just have a list of parts that are allowed or not. You could do an expanded FIRST Choice if you like.

We always end up of with tons of parts we don't use which isn't good for the environment, our budget (with higher reg fees) or our storage. Neither FLL or FTC have a KOP, why does FRC?

I'd also suggest they release the general list of parts you are allowed to use a month BEFORE kickoff at least so teams could order parts they know they'll use before the big day. That would save on shipping. FTC teams know they'll use Tetrix parts, FLL teams know they'll use Lego. FRC teams should be able to count on a base set of parts without guessing.

[Dominator1619]

I think allowing us to know a general list of parts allowed before is a great thought, but it really would only help veteran teams. Rookie teams with no real veteran support in thier area wouldn't have much of a clue of what they'd really need for compitition. Not everyone in the first world really comes on here, so rookie teams that are completely unaware of CD would be hurt by a reduced/eliminated KOP. I know our team every couple of years just recycles the stuff we don't use anymore (due to new rules/stuff going bad) and it helps raise some funds for our team plus the junk just doesn't end up in some landfill somewhere. And as far as limiting creativity with the expansion of the motor selection to allow for more of one type, creativity can be limited because of unreliablity in the motors we have. I know our team alone burnt up almost a dozen rs-550's this past season, so where's the encouragement to use those motors again if we had so many problems with them these past few years

[PAR_WIG1350]

Originally Posted by Dominator1619

I think allowing us to know a general list of parts allowed before is a great thought, but it really would only help veteran teams. Rookie teams with no real veteran support in thier area wouldn't have much of a clue of what they'd really need for compitition. Not everyone in the first world really comes on here, so rookie teams that are completely unaware of CD would be hurt by a reduced/eliminated KOP. I know our team every couple of years just recycles the stuff we don't use anymore (due to new rules/stuff going bad) and it helps raise some funds for our team plus the junk just doesn't end up in some landfill somewhere. And as far as limiting creativity with the expansion of the motor selection to allow for more of one type, creativity can be limited because of unreliablity in the motors we have. I know our team alone burnt up almost a dozen rs-550's this past season, so where's the encouragement to use those motors again if we had so many problems with them these past few years

In general, the 550's used in FRC are not unreliable because of any fault in the motor design. Typically only the combination of the motor, the transmission, and the demands on the system result in unreliability. With small, powerful motors, one must do everything necessary to prevent them from stalling or running slow. This means higher reductions, and using sensors to protect the motors if necessary. The 500 size motors we have been allowed to use in the past have been invaluable additions to the list of available motors due to their high power output and their compact size and I would hate to see them go without a suitable replacement to fill the gaping hole it would leave in the motor options available to teams.

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by Dominator1619

I know our team alone burnt up almost a dozen rs-550's this past season, so where's the encouragement to use those motors again if we had so many problems with them these past few years

Not be rude,

But the issue here isn't the RS 550 motors. Its more or less the way you are using them and your speed/torque ratio. We have used them in arms/conveyors and numerous applications with zero issues. One example, this year we used a single rs 550 motor for our arm with a gas strut assist. It lifted some serious weight but never got even close to being warm. It was actually the coldest motor on our entire bot. I wish I could say the same for the intake FP's

You may be stalling them and not gearing the motor properly for your application. JVN's Calc helps with the math.

Where have you had issues with these motors?

I would hate for these motors to go.

-RC

[apalrd]

My opinions on motors:

-Many motors prefer operating in various power regions. The CIM motors really don't care (in a 2 minute match), but a few other motors are picky:

--550 sized motors are very power-dense, the most power dense motors in the kit - They're not very much bigger than the 18w throttle control motors, but most of the ones do anything from 180w to 290w peak power. The CIM's are huge (have a lot of thermal mass) and do around ~340w at peak power. Because they produce so much heat for their small size, they have internal fans to cool them. If the fan does not spin while the motor is energized, the motor can't get rid of the heat fast enough, and then parts begin to melt. You then need to use them in an application where they will always spin, by gearing them correctly and never stalling them.

--Many automotive motors have thermal breakers inside. In some power windows, there is actually no sensor, and the button literally controls the motor directly, with the vehicle relying on the thermal breaker to protect the motor. These motors are impossible to burn up in FRC use, because of this. These motors will cutout when their limits are approached, and will just stop. This is usually good, as you know you are pushing the motor too hard, and need to re-gear.

--During the official season, we had 7 550-sized motors on our robot (there are up to 8 legal 550-sized motors). We never burned out a 550 motor during the season.

[Dominator1619]

The rs-550's we were having issues with we're run through a 64:1 reduction gearbox in our conveyor system. There was little compression on the balls moving through the system. To be honest, the only two pieces of electrical equipment we haven't had problems with are the CIM's and the victors (that includes burning up 3 cRio's and 4 PDB's). We have consistently had electrical problems ever since we left the old ifi system. Maybe we've just had a run of bad luck. Regardless of those issues, we more than likely will be finding a use for those little rs-550's in the up coming season as well

[AlexH]

the omfgbb gearboxes are crap. the planet gears are slightly too big and grind on the ring gear. the 64:1's have way too much resistance in them because of this. a guy i know was losing about 250w in his boxes with no load on them.

[PAR_WIG1350]

Originally Posted by AlexH

the omfgbb gearboxes are crap. the planet gears are slightly too big and grind on the ring gear. the 64:1's have way too much resistance in them because of this. a guy i know was losing about 250w in his boxes with no load on them.

Did he break them in first? If you grease them, run them unloaded for a while, degrease them (the metal shavings suspended in the grease are what you are really trying to get rid of, but it's not worth the hassle), regrease them, and reassemble them and they should run a lot more efficiently.

[Gdeaver]

The BB planetary gear boxes are designed to come in at a price we can afford. Precision planetary gear boxes in the size to match the 5oo series motors are very expensive. Our team has not been able to find anything that we could afford that is better than the Banes Bot solution. So we love them and hate them.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

The BB planetary gear boxes are designed to come in at a price we can afford. Precision planetary gear boxes in the size to match the 5oo series motors are very expensive. Our team has not been able to find anything that we could afford that is better than the Banes Bot solution. So we love them and hate them.

Since we are talking about planetaries that mate to 550s, does anyone have a list of suppliers that provide high quality planetaries that can mate to the 300/500/700 series motors. We need a list, for other reasons.