[FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by bardd

If one of the winning teams had to do with this interference, or even any of the teams who played in Einstien, I would have agreed (of cource, not giving the interfering team any title). Since Jon Dudas's letter clearly states none of these teams were involved, I think FIRST made the right decision.

Originally Posted by dodar

the point im getting at is, putting forth the person and team publicly would do far greater harm to the team and their image amongst their peers and the FIRST community. I think a much better solution to what Karthik wants, and is justified in wanting, is to have all the parties involved meet so that everyone can be satisfied as to reasons why, punishment, etc... But I do beleive that this shouldnt be known to the masses.

Originally Posted by Karthik

We are shocked, dismayed and troubled that an individual on a FIRST team would actually perform an intentional, malicious, wireless attack on our alliance. We are concerned that neither the individual nor the team he is associated have yet to come forward and publicly apologize for this horrendous incident. We hope that they come forward publicly soon, so we can all put this terrible event behind us. It would be a shame if they hid under the cloak of anonymity. Even if the team was completely unaware of the individual's actions, we would still hope that they would come forward, so that some of the motives would become more clear.

Words can't express how much this news hurts. To know that someone felt the need to intentionally target us for this type of attack stings beyond all belief. This is not the FIRST we grew up in, this is not the FIRST we love.

I believe Mr. Dudas' letter, as well as other posts, are attempting to make it clear that the actions of the individual should in no way place a stigma against the team that the individual was formerly associated with.

[Bryan Herbst]

After thoroughly reviewing the report, I have come to two conclusions:

1) FIRST did an incredible job of researching all of the factors that went into what happened on Einstein.

2) Any team, regardless of experience and ranking can have those simple little problems that could contribute to larger problems such as what happened on Einstein.

Regardless of whether or not the code and electrical problems were the root cause of the Einstein failures, each and every team should review this document and ask themselves whether or not they might have similar electrical/programming problems.

Loops without sleeps and bad crimps are problems that are easy to look for in your robot, but not necessarily easy to diagnose. If teams add these to their list of things to check on their robots during the build season, we can help ensure that robots are running to the best of their ability. Should any further malicious behavior take place, removing these problems as a potential source will assist in troubleshooting as well.

[Ether]

If one of the winning teams had to do with this interference, or even any of the teams who played in Einstien, I would have agreed (of cource, not giving the interfering team any title). Since Jon Dudas's letter clearly states none of these teams were involved,

Where does his letter clearly state that?

[PayneTrain]

While I still read, I think I should note to anyone who has hard feelings against 1114 or another successful team: what the heck are you gaining by beating someone else down? What would inspire you to go out of your way to see someone fail (the real kicker being you get nothing in return save for some personal satisfaction)? A bully beating up a bunch of kids in the FIRST playground is frankly depressing. I don't visit FIRST and FRC affiliated web sites to become depressed.

To make things a bit more light-hearted, I hope this act doesn't delay any development of SimPhone on Android. My Galaxy Nexus is a tame soul. It's letting me thumb through the report and push the link to some students on other teams.

[Ether]

Originally Posted by CalTran

I believe Mr. Dudas' letter, as well as other posts, are attempting to make it clear that the actions of the individual should in no way place a stigma against the team that the individual was formerly associated with.

^^Quoted for truth.

Furthermore, we should set the bar pretty high for characterizing an individual's intent to be "malicious".

The words in the report and Jon Dudas' letter are insufficient to support that conclusion.

We don't know the individual's motive or intent.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Ether

^^Quoted for truth.

Furthermore, we should set the bar pretty high for characterizing an individual's intent to be "malicious".

The words in the report and Jon Dudas' letter are insufficient to support that conclusion.

We don't know the individual's motive or intent.

I agree completely. I can contemplate a few ways that someone might have been trying to actually help but picked a very bad way to achieve it.

Also, since there were issues outside of Einstein it sort of makes sense that there could be other ways this might happen that aren't quite so badly intentioned.

[ttldomination]

Oh man, I have never seen someone roasted so hard on CD.

Just stop and think for one second. You know there's an issue, and you know the people who can fix it. But, instead of acknowledging the issue, they tell you to go away? Then, you're determined to show them that this issue is real, and that it matters. All you can think of is proving them wrong and proving yourself right. So then you take actions that aren't good, but in your mind, they will serve a greater good.

In my short few years being around people, I've met a handful of people who are utterly brilliant but they have no social awareness and a lack of ability to see consequences. These people are nailed as socially awkward, but in their mind whatever they are doing, however they are doing it, is perfectly right.

Did this person interfere intentionally? Yes.
Do I believe that this person had malicious intent at heart? No.
Do I believe that the person has been adequately punished? Yes.

Additionally, I cannot even begin to imagine how team 1114 and their alliance partners currently feel, however, I believe that making a public apology is not the right path. The internet is the internet, and FIRST is FIRST. By publicly revealing himself/herself and the team, they leave themselves open to emotional, and possibly physical, harassment.

I am not condoning these actions, I am not condoning this person. However, without knowing all of the facts, I cannot support any action that would possibly bring this person any more harm.

- Sunny G.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

Oh man, I have never seen someone roasted so hard on CD.

Just stop and think for one second. You know there's an issue, and you know the people who can fix it. But, instead of acknowledging the issue, they tell you to go away? Then, you're determined to show them that this issue is real, and that it matters. All you can think of is proving them wrong and proving yourself right. So then you take actions that aren't good, but in your mind, they will serve a greater good.

In my short few years being around people, I've met a handful of people who are utterly brilliant but they have no social awareness and a lack of ability to see consequences. These people are nailed as socially awkward, but in their mind whatever they are doing, however they are doing it, is perfectly right.

Did this person interfere intentionally? Yes.
Do I believe that this person had malicious intent at heart? No.
Do I believe that the person has been adequately punished? Yes.

Additionally, I cannot even begin to imagine how team 1114 and their alliance partners currently feel, however, I believe that making a public apology is not the right path. The internet is the internet, and FIRST is FIRST. By publicly revealing himself/herself and the team, they leave themselves open to emotional, and possibly physical, harassment.

I am not condoning these actions, I am not condoning this person. However, without knowing all of the facts, I cannot support any action that would possibly bring this person any more harm.

- Sunny G.

I agree with you, but then also having these findings say that some of these teams lost connection because they were DDOS'ed and thats why they couldnt participate in matches, makes me say that the students, mentors, and parents of those teams deserve more than what this student has supposedly gone through. 1114 and 2056 specifically, because they were the 2 I know that said they were DDOS'ed, should feel the worst because their teams worked hard all season to accomplish what they did and got to the level they did this season and then had it swiped away by someone that had nothing to do with the match.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

Just stop and think for one second. You know there's an issue, and you know the people who can fix it. But, instead of acknowledging the issue, they tell you to go away? Then, you're determined to show them that this issue is real, and that it matters. All you can think of is proving them wrong and proving yourself right. So then you take actions that aren't good, but in your mind, they will serve a greater good.

For all we know the person who they know had knowledge of it was just the tip of the iceberg. They could have told someone else that thought it was funny and did it to. They could have found this out from someone else that was also doing it.

There could also have been some other factor at work and let's hope it's one of those acknowledged within the report because a large amount of cost and effort went into this after the fact.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

Just stop and think for one second. You know there's an issue, and you know the people who can fix it. But, instead of acknowledging the issue, they tell you to go away? Then, you're determined to show them that this issue is real, and that it matters. All you can think of is proving them wrong and proving yourself right. So then you take actions that aren't good, but in your mind, they will serve a greater good.

This reminds me of a story told to me by one of my university profs in networking.

Some friend of his found a flaw in the City of Toronto's (IIRC, big metropolitan centre anyway) traffic light control system. Tried to tell city council and they ignored him, blew him off. So he turned every traffic light red in the city for several minutes. When they came after him? He said "Be thankful I didn't turn them green."

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by SenorZ

Hmmm. Intentional interference... sounds like FRC is really starting to look like a "varsity" sport.

Aside from Einstein having issues there were tons of radio and cRIO issues at regionals. It really is time for FIRST to look at a new system.

After reading the report, I think I could say that I now support FIRST's claims of "Its not us, its you" in regards to comms loss at the regionals this year. If 5 of the 12 Einstein teams could have electrical/programming issues, I can see it being a larger problem then I thought before. Even though most of the errors were silly mistakes that wouldn't effect comss, imagine all the other teams that could make silly mistakes that would. The control system is fine, if put together correctly. More documentation is all you could really do about that, but teams have to read it. Now the radio, on the other hand..


I'm impressed with the detailed report and the handling of the situation by FIRST. Can't wait to get my hands on the FMS white paper!

As to the "interferer", I see his actions "accidentally intentional". From my understanding of the report, he simply tried to connect to the robot and provided an incorrect network password. I've seen robot networks on my mobile device many times, and tried connecting to it in the shop out of curiosity. Nothing really happened in that environment, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and call it a case of curiosity killed the cat. After all he did come forward.

[LeelandS]

I'm going to keep my personal feelings on the shelf for a while. I need to give it some time before I address more... unsavory... aspects of the situation.

But, what I am overjoyed to say, is FIRST did an amazing job at covering the situation. When I opened the document, I expected a 4/5-ish page summary report of what FIRST had been doing with the Einstein teams the past few weeks. I was pleasantly surprised to find an extremely long, fully detailed report of EVERY test and analysis run by FIRST. Bravo, FIRST. Bravo. You owe us nothing. Yet you went through everything for us. You guys rock!

I'll leave it with this. Do we really need a pound of flesh?
Just sayin'.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by dodar

I agree with you, but then also having these findings say that some of these teams lost connection because they were DDOS'ed and thats why they couldnt participate in matches, makes me say that the students, mentors, and parents of those teams deserve more than what this student has supposedly gone through. 1114 and 2056 specifically, because they were the 2 I know that said they were DDOS'ed, should feel the worst because their teams worked hard all season to accomplish what they did and got to the level they did this season and then had it swiped away by someone that had nothing to do with the match.

Every year someone that worked very hard has ultimate victory just out of grasp as there is a certain amount of random risk in this competition. I don't think that these teams are going away entirely empty handed. Though I do respect that they got a raw deal.

We can't assume that the person involved is any more guilty than a hypothetical weird wiring issue on the field.

We don't know if they were the only one doing this at all.

We don't know if they fully understood what they were doing.

We don't know how it was if they were trying to fix it they were dismissed.

I can't feel the need to ruin what could be some person's life when these teams will continue and have more chances to make it that far.

Besides this is perhaps one of those stranger and more memorable moments where the memory of the participation is more valuable than the dusty trophy. I'm sure a great number of us won't soon forget what happened.

[Alexa Stott]

Imagine the chaos if FIRST allowed any random person to walk in and give their suggestions while trying to diagnose the issue during Einstein. They'd be flooded with every person out there who has a theory (take a look at the numerous Einstein threads filled with people bickering about what they think happened to get an idea of how many people that would be) to step in.

Also, the document indicates that this individual was observed doing this multiple times and continuing throughout the match. If they were just doing some unauthorized (and incredibly harmful) troubleshooting, why didn't they stop after forcing a robot to lose connection the first time? Why did they take their phone out after explicitly being told not to? Because of those facts, I think it's hard to say that the intent was not malicious.

My heart goes out to The Eh Team. Nobody doubts that they were an amazing alliance of 2 of the best teams (and one very promising up and comer). When people look back on Rebound Rumble, they will not only remember that 16, 25, and 180 won, but that 1114, 2056, 4334, 987, 233, 118, 548, 2194, and 207 were all outstanding teams whose robots excelled at the game.

Originally Posted by Ether

Where does his letter clearly state that [none of the teams on Einstein were involved]?

In Jon Dudas' statement, he says:

The person who engaged in this interference was associated with an FRC team, but not with any team on the winning alliance.

Nothing about the other Einstein teams, though.

[Jedward45]

Im really really glad FIRST took their time to put together an awesome report! BUT.... after reading the whole things twice, I'll admit I don't quite have the technical experience to understand the report in its entirety.

Could someone summarize and explain the more detailed aspects of the Robot Testing and Failed Client Authentication Testing? Specifically, what intentional interference actually happened, how did it cause problems, and what are they planning to do to fix the issue?

Thanks!