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#76
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
Firstly, thanks to everyone in and out of FIRST who made this exhaustive testing and report possible. It is great to have such a thorough analysis of the forces at play on Einstein and the lengths they went to replicate on field conditions were extraordinary. I sincerely hope this leads to dramatically less communications faults at any event this year.
It's absolutely appalling that someone in FIRST would sabotage an alliance (and then some) by exploiting a security vulnerability. It's also appalling that it could be so simple to knock a robot out of commission in any FRC match since Week 4. Cisco's got some 'splainin' to do... Quote:
And does it even matter what his / her intent was? Are the affected teams supposed to feel better about being cheated out of a fair chance at victory because "oh, he / she had good intentions"? |
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#77
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
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Add to this the storm and the other distractions it's just a perfectly bad combination. |
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#78
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
I know I need to let this all marinate, but if the cause is so noble there is a far better way to achieve the results without taking it out on an alliance that has quickly become a punching bag in darker corners of the community (even though a member of it is the newest team in the FRC HoF...)
:/ this is rough stuff |
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#79
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
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#80
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
The poster he is referring to stated that non of the Einstein teams were involved, not none of the winning alliance.
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#81
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
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If it had been one match that this happened in and had the person put the phone away when asked, my feelings on this would be much different. Last edited by Alexa Stott : 13-07-2012 at 21:36. |
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#82
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
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So they put it in their pocket and it's still causing trouble. Then they take it out and it's still causing trouble. They are likely just as distracted as everyone else with the weather, the people watching, people's behavior near them, etc. It's really hard to say what people do when they put themselves in a bad spot like that. From the second they were asked to put it away they were in fact in a lot of trouble. I don't disagree with your gut reaction. After all I had concerns about power issues before this all started and FIRST suggested we not test at Einstein those issues. As it turned out some of those issues existed who knows maybe they would have been found (I can't prove it either way). I even went so far as to ask the question in the official forum with regards to the championship. However, no means no. We completed the testing of my little oscilloscopes for the power to the radio on off season events. We did it where it would do as little harm as possible to FIRST proper if something happened that was not expected. We did it with full knowledge of those who could be effected. There was most definitely bad judgement at work with this person's choice of actions. They've made themselves a sitting duck for suspicion. It's highly unlikely we will ever know if they are the only source of the deauth issue. The amateur way they handled themselves however, concerns me because usually where there's an amateur trouble maker that is easy to spot it is a distraction for someone that's not an amateur. I mean not to start a witch hunt just to make the point. We live in a complicated world where rarely do specific effective security issues just magically appear to a single person. Like the systems themselves they are collaborative efforts. I have a hard time believing that a person so clearly asking to get caught just figured this all out on their own. In a perverse way the drive to seek out the problem with the WiFi might have guided them to this issue via collaboration, but even then I doubt they crafted the attack and were ready to report it just in time of that one event. I do computer security for a living in part so perhaps it's just in my nature to rarely assume the singular genius that hands themselves to me on the silver platter isn't covering for someone else. Last edited by techhelpbb : 14-07-2012 at 02:18. |
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#83
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
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#84
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
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FIRST officials spotted him twice: Quote:
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#85
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
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#86
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
My head spins there is so much to take in.
First, I join my voice to the chorus that is saddened and outraged by the behavior of this individual*. I don't suppose that this is the first malicious attack by an individual on another FIRST team or alliance but this attack is so brazen. I am sick. Really sick. Second, I don't think that it is too much to expect the former team of this individual to apologize to the teams involved as well as the entire FIRST community. What is more, depending on the circumstances, I would think that it may be appropriate for them to assure the FIRST community that they are committed to Gracious Professionalism in its highest sense and that they are committed to rooting out anything within their team culture that may have contributed to fostering the behavior of this individual. I don't want to start a rumor but does anyone else think that this must be related to the nonsense that went on at the Greater Toronto East Regional? If so, the Canadian FIRST community really has to work to lance this boil. Third, I am really disturbed by this statement in the report: Quote:
Fourth, they offer "Additional emphasis in training and documentation" as a mitigation for "Robot D-Link radio reboot due to power dip." I hate this proposal. It seems to me that either the robots must return to active duty (passing packets back and forth) in a handful of milliseconds OR the radios must work down to a voltage that is almost literally impossible to get to without tripping the breaker (say 1.5 volts or something ridiculous like that). Fifth, it seems to me that FIRST (and the FMS) has one implied contract with the teams: We will get X% of your data packets from your Operator Interface to your Robot and vice versa within Y msec. In my view of the world, literally the SECOND the FMS breaks this contract for even one robot on the field, the match has to stop and be replayed. Period. With the current system this vision cannot be fully implemented because of dead/disconnected batteries and other complications. I will say that if FIRST had this as their standard, this attack would not have been prevented but the attacker's purpose would not have been accomplished, which may have kept the attacker from even trying. Reading the report, it is hard to know if the FMS system actively monitors this contract... ...past is past. Going forward, I really think FIRST should implement such a system hosting another tournament. Finally, I hope that the FIRST community can pull together as a result of these events. We must do our best make FIRST better because of it. I have faith in our ability to do so. Regards, Joe J. *I say "individual" because I am not sure if there were two or one. The report seems to indicate two folks were involved but only one was banned for life so... ...perhaps I am misunderstanding the text. Last edited by Joe Johnson : 13-07-2012 at 22:01. |
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#87
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
While this is a terrible event (it's terrible, it happened, end of story), my concern is that field issues happened all around the world during regionals/districts. Was a similar event the cause of all of those disruptions? There are people in the world who sometimes make the wrong decision, but to have such a person at all of the events where connection issues were present doesn't seem right.
Last edited by Andrew Lawrence : 13-07-2012 at 22:04. Reason: replaced "country" with "world" to include international teams |
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#88
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
I think that FIRST did a great job at handling this situation. This is something that could have easily been ignored or swept under the rug. No one would have known. Instead, they put a lot of time and money into the investigation.
It is a shame that something like this would occur in a student-based organization but it is comforting to know that FIRST puts its participants and ethics first. I am so proud to have been a part of such a great organization. |
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#89
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
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Take any system, no matter how well designed, and subject it to 60,000 ambitious folks all playing with it and see how secure it is. This week's 'Yahoo' password hack displays just what happens when even the most competent network security is open for public interaction. Someone WILL find a way in. Google, Microsoft, and even the stock market have been subject to security invasions as well. I hate to say it, but in this situation security through obscurity is FIRST's best bet. The entire system needs to be removed from the consumer electronics spectrum that all these common tools are designed to work with. I.e. - standard a/b/g/n wireless needs to disappear. If this does not change and go to a proprietary system, I will 100% guarantee you WILL see this happen again. |
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#90
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Re: [FRC Blog] Einstein Report Released
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Just my $0.02 CAN |
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