Team 4334 VS 148 @IRI (Video)

[Libby K]

I like to call this one the "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE."
Nice job, 4334.

[JesseK]

I'll catch some flak for this, but I see this video as more marketing than an actual basis of expectation for 4334 moving forward. If the team had tried a shooting mechanism this year then that defense may have left them with a different post-match situation. The video further adds to 4334's expectations of powerhouse-endorsed greatness since the play itself was but a glimpse of a pattern of opportunistic success. Yet left to their own devices I'm not so sure the team will have the same success in 2013.

It was fun to watch nonetheless

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by JesseK

I'll catch some flak for this, but I see this video as more marketing than an actual basis of expectation for 4334 moving forward. If the team had tried a shooting mechanism this year then that defense may have left them with a different post-match situation. The video further adds to 4334's expectations of powerhouse-endorsed greatness since the play itself was but a glimpse of a pattern of opportunistic success. Yet left to their own devices I'm not so sure the team will have the same success in 2013.

It was fun to watch nonetheless

If you watch their other videos your impression will change.

They explain their choice of making such a robot was based on knowing they were unlikely to be a true frontrunner if they attempted scoring (moreso middle pack, a respectable feat for a rookie anyway) and would rather make the robot that would be picked by the best. The videos show the team has a lot of resources and reasoned, intelligent members.

One could (but shouldn't) look at their 2012 machine and say it's unimpressive and doesn't indicate future success, but the thought process and team revealed in their videos and public statements are the type of group that will be competitive in the future.

[Hjelstrom]

I have to admit I didn't give that robot enough credit when I first saw it. That was a pretty incredible design and implementation for a first year team. To have the foresight to choose the strategy they did was really impressive. The way their ball manipulator does everything (scoring, picking up balls, lowering the bridge) is really cool.

Great job!

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JesseK

If the team had tried a shooting mechanism this year then that defense may have left them with a different post-match situation.

Yeah, and if 2791 built a swerve this year we probably wouldn't have moved. What's your point?

4334 built a fabulous robot within their means that performed objectively better than many teams with shooting mechanisms. Their ability to honestly evaluate their capabilities and to choose a robot type that would get them success on the field (without a shooter) is exactly why they were so successful this year. Yes, if they built a shooter they would have been worse - but they didn't!

Seriously, we should have built that robot this year, and I bet a lot of FIRST is saying the same thing. Or at least in my opinion they should be.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Seriously, we should have built that robot this year, and I bet a lot of FIRST is saying the same thing. Or at least in my opinion they should be.

There is no doubt a lot of teams should have built that robot this year. As the #1 seed at BM and the #2 seed at QC we would have killed to have a robot like that to pick.

More teams should realistically evaluate their capabilities and resourses as well as 4334 did this year.

[Akash Rastogi]

As a rookie team for 2012, we can honestly say we should have built that robot, because in the end, our machine ended up doing the same thing; playing defense, feeding in auton, and gathering balls, and not nearly as effectively as 4334. AND they were wide, they just flat out analyzed the game and their experience/resources/time better. *They can definitely do the same next year. If they were a generic box on wheels then yes I would agree with JesseK, but it is simply not a box on wheels. It is a well thought out design that was implemented better than probably 90% of most other bots this season, including ours.

*- and by this I don't mean build a 3rd bot, I mean analyze the game properly.

[JohnSchneider]

I'm going to start calling these "3rd pick bots". Robots like 4334, and several teams who sat under the towers and redirected balls in 2010 (Besides 469...they dont count ) are designed to be 3rd robots, and aid both their allies. Speaking from experience we built one in 2010, and were told later that had we not gotten picked by our friends in #4, #1 would have picked us and we could have won our first regional.

Historically you never really need more than 2 offensive scorers, so teams who know they can't build a competetive scorer should all DEFFINITLY attempt this. Especially rookies. You can next to guarentee getting picked. I think matches in any game would be much more exiting with different types of robots, instead of watching 6 scorers go at it, and struggle from lack of game pieces. As long as we dont get games like 2011, where there isnt much of an option for one.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Yeah, and if 2791 built a swerve this year we probably wouldn't have moved. What's your point?

.....

Seriously, we should have built that robot this year, and I bet a lot of FIRST is saying the same thing. Or at least in my opinion they should be.

There's an interesting dichotomy in my comparison of the situation in the video and your comparison to your whole competition season.

This is like saying to your boss "I didn't meet your expectations this year, and next year you should expect even less value from me than the value I managed to produce this year". You'd be gone from your company in the next round of layoffs for striving to meet the lowest common denominator.

My overall point is that yea, 4334 had a great season. Yet statistically speaking, for them shine next year they'll have to step up in some way or another.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by JesseK

You'd be gone from your company in the next round of layoffs for striving to meet the lowest common denominator.

You can't exactly compare this to that. This bot, much like 148 in 2008, is the top in its class or category of robots that fill a specific need. Each year's game has some category like this. In 2006 it might be feeders/dumpers (I think 195 did this?), in 07 it might be ramp bots, in 08 lap bots (148), in 09 perhaps super cell delivery/defense, etc..

If their goal is to consistently be the best robot in this type of category, I don't see this as a goal of being the lowest common denominator, I see it as being smart about their strategy to earn gold medals. I also don't see it as taking the easier road to having a gold and not having a challenging design. 148 in 2008 didn't need to have a swerve, but it was their challenge to themselves and they still seeded high at their regionals and then won Champs. There's no need why a team cannot challenge themselves while still creating the perfect auxiliary function robot.


On another note, perhaps a thread specifically about these types of robots would be better, rather than discussing it in 4334's thread.

+0.02

[JohnSchneider]

Originally Posted by JesseK

There's an interesting dichotomy in my comparison of the situation in the video and your comparison to your whole competition season.

This is like saying to your boss "I didn't meet your expectations this year, and next year you should expect even less value from me than the value I managed to produce this year". You'd be gone from your company in the next round of layoffs for striving to meet the lowest common denominator.

My overall point is that yea, 4334 had a great season. Yet statistically speaking, for them shine next year they'll have to step up in some way or another.

I think a better way of saying it is: You can't build 3rd robots forever, and so youll eventually have to compete against other scorers. And that 4334 had an excellent season being a 3rd robot, but they will eventually have to compete against 1114 and 2056, instead of getting picked by them.

And given their resources, I have little doubt they can pull it off. Im anxious to see how FRC evolves in Canada!

[dodar]

Originally Posted by animenerdjohn

I think a better way of saying it is: You can't build 3rd robots forever, and so youll eventually have to compete against other scorers. And that 4334 had an excellent season being a 3rd robot, but they will eventually have to compete against 1114 and 2056, instead of getting picked by them.

And given their resources, I have little doubt they can pull it off. Im anxious to see how FRC evolves in Canada!

This isnt entirely true. You can build winning/successful 3rd robots year in and year out but it is only limited to the game. 2006 - yes, 2007 - yes, 2008 - yes, 2009 - no, 2010 - yes, 2011 - no, 2012 - yes. Thats 5 out of the last 7 years where a team could build a winning/successful 3rd alliance robot. So, depending on the type of game, one team could consistently build good bots that dont score; unless the year is a pure offense game like 2009 and 2011.

[JohnSchneider]

Originally Posted by dodar

This isnt entirely true. You can build winning/successful 3rd robots year in and year out but it is only limited to the game. 2006 - yes, 2007 - yes, 2008 - yes, 2009 - no, 2010 - yes, 2011 - no, 2012 - yes. Thats 5 out of the last 7 years where a team could build a winning/successful 3rd alliance robot. So, depending on the type of game, one team could consistently build good bots that dont score; unless the year is a pure offense game like 2009 and 2011.

Yeah but soon teams will start getting wise, and youll have #8 alliances picking them. And we know the statistics on #8s winning regionals :/

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by animenerdjohn

I think a better way of saying it is: You can't build 3rd robots forever, and so youll eventually have to compete against other scorers. And that 4334 had an excellent season being a 3rd robot, but they will eventually have to compete against 1114 and 2056, instead of getting picked by them.

And given their resources, I have little doubt they can pull it off. Im anxious to see how FRC evolves in Canada!

I kind of get what you're saying. When you get to that middle range where you're the best 3rd bot/low-tier 2nd bot. That's where 1675 has been the majority of the last 2 years. Losing to Wildstang from the 8th seed in quarters at both of our regionals in '11 kinda sucked . Especially with more and more quality robots coming out of Wisconsin we have to step our game up.

[AdamHeard]

I don't think 4334 intends to make a 3rd bot next year.

A team learns a lot in their first season, especially after playing with such great teams.

No one can truly speak for them, but I imagine their decision to "aim low" was to make their first season as successful as possible, while learning as much as possible to come out aiming to be a frontrunner in their second season.

As I said before, the decisions they made this year are indicative of intelligent understanding of strategy and design; a skillset that will lead t hem to being a top team in the future.