[FTC]: Unlimited raw materials. Welding. Wow!

[jcarr]

Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack

However, there is nothing in the rulebook that gives this specific guidance, the same standard will not be held to other teams, and the judges will not punish other teams who choose not to.
.

I looked and was amazed to find that you are right, they took the FTC Core values out of the Game Manual and off the web site. They are still in the mentor guide (see below), but that is not part of the rules. Well, they say it's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that isn't so. I have been teaching these core values to both FLL and FTC kids and coaches for years now, but apparently they took them out of FTC without telling the coaches. My apologies.

From the FTC Mentor guide:

FIRST® Tech Challenge (FTC®) Core Values
Volunteers are integral to the FIRST® community. The FIRST Tech Challenge relies on Volunteers to run the program at many
levels, from managing a region to mentoring an individual team. FTC® Affiliate Partners coordinate the program in each region
or state. These FTC Partners fundraise, run tournaments, hold workshops and demonstrations, market FTC locally, handle public
relations, and recruit Volunteers and teams. They are a tremendous resource for Mentors, and FTC would not exist without them.
FIRST asks everyone who participates in FTC to uphold the following values:
• We act with integrity
• We are a team.
• We do the work to get the job done with guidance from our coaches and mentors.
• We respect each other in the best spirit of teamwork
• We honor the spirit of friendly competition.
• What we learn is more important than what we win.
• We behave with courtesy and compassion for others at all times
• We share our experiences with others.
• We display gracious professionalism in everything we do.
• We have fun.
• We encourage others to adopt these values.
FTC

[Barry Bonzack]

I have created a new thread to continue the discussion about mentor involvement in FTC, and have asked the mods to move posts specific to this topic. Please continue to only discuss the materials rules in this thread, and express any oppinions on the other topic in the new thread.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, should have known my earlier post would hit a nerve amoung the community.

[chi-town-biker]

No one has mentioned this but FTC lacks an equivalent to FRC’s R18 which states “Robot elements designed or created before the Kickoff presentation, including software, are not permitted.” The implication is that FTC teams can reuse any parts they build for multiple years. It hasn’t been an issue until now because what you could build was so limited.

I don’t think the missing rule is necessarily bad. I wouldn’t suggest it for this season’s game but I could see a team building mecanum wheels from raw materials next summer and reusing them for several seasons. That would be an excellent way to teach everything from drive system theory to machining skills.

[Andrew Remmers]

Originally Posted by chi-town-biker

No one has mentioned this but FTC lacks an equivalent to FRC’s R18 which states “Robot elements designed or created before the Kickoff presentation, including software, are not permitted.” The implication is that FTC teams can reuse any parts they build for multiple years. It hasn’t been an issue until now because what you could build was so limited.

I don’t think the missing rule is necessarily bad. I wouldn’t suggest it for this season’s game but I could see a team building mecanum wheels from raw materials next summer and reusing them for several seasons. That would be an excellent way to teach everything from drive system theory to machining skills.

I think they should allow teams to purchase parts from a third party company, now that the materials are unlimited. Someone could design and sell things like mechanum wheels and such to teams for teams who don't necissarily have those machining capablities, kinda like Andymark, and West Coast Products for FRC. That would be interesting.

[jcarr]

Originally Posted by Joyride_67_1902

I think they should allow teams to purchase parts from a third party company, now that the materials are unlimited. Someone could design and sell things like mechanum wheels and such to teams for teams who don't necissarily have those machining capablities, kinda like Andymark, and West Coast Products for FRC. That would be interesting.

I think that is an excellent idea! Teams that don't have machine shops can buy parts that are closer to what they need than tetrix or matrix.

[jcarr]

Has anyone noticed that the link to Pitsco from FTC seems to have dissappeared? I wonder if we can still get discounted Tetrix parts or they are terminating their special relationship with FIRST due to the rule change and the support for Matrix?

[Scott_4140]

Originally Posted by jcarr

Has anyone noticed that the link to Pitsco from FTC seems to have dissappeared? I wonder if we can still get discounted Tetrix parts or they are terminating their special relationship with FIRST due to the rule change and the support for Matrix?

It’s still there.

Team Resources > FTC Toolbox > Purchase TETRIX spare parts and supplies

http://parts.ftcrobots.com/Default.aspx?bhcp=1

[emmell]

Originally Posted by jcarr

Has anyone noticed that the link to Pitsco from FTC seems to have dissappeared? I wonder if we can still get discounted Tetrix parts or they are terminating their special relationship with FIRST due to the rule change and the support for Matrix?

Well, http://parts.ftcrobots.com still exists and still offers discounted parts to FTC teams. I think it might just be an oversight.

[Scott_4140]

The link is still there too.
Team Resources > FTC Toolbox > TETRIX Resources > Purchase TETRIX® spare parts and supplies

[jcarr]

I had a different link. Thanks!

[NateJGardner]

I'm quite excited for the new raw materials rule. I don't think this gives teams with machine shops as big of an advantage as some might think. A simple base can win everything in this game.

I do miss the idea of a limited kit of parts, i.e. the challenge of doing what you want and still staying within the always slightly-annoyingly-right-below-what-we-need-to-make-it-work rules. Even so, I think the teams that spend their time working with what they have rather than taking a few weeks to machine new parts will succeed most. A few specialized parts will work great, but teams that cast down their buckets where they are and use the readily-available parts for the majority of their robots will have more time to strategize and refine their designs. The reason I prefer FTC to FRC is not because FRC teams can use so many raw materials, but because FTC is about strategy and design-refinement. FRC teams don't have as much time to refine and test their designs, so FTC robots are often more reliable. This isn't to say there aren't great FRC bots build entirely from raw materials, but I think kit robots and custom robots are on an even playing field.

There are, and always will be, diminishing returns on how many resources a team has. A team with the base $650 Tetrix kit can still be very competitive this season.

[Andrew Remmers]

Originally Posted by NateJGardner

I'm quite excited for the new raw materials rule. I don't think this gives teams with machine shops as big of an advantage as some might think. A simple base can win everything in this game.

I do miss the idea of a limited kit of parts, i.e. the challenge of doing what you want and still staying within the always slightly-annoyingly-right-below-what-we-need-to-make-it-work rules. Even so, I think the teams that spend their time working with what they have rather than taking a few weeks to machine new parts will succeed most. A few specialized parts will work great, but teams that cast down their buckets where they are and use the readily-available parts for the majority of their robots will have more time to strategize and refine their designs. The reason I prefer FTC to FRC is not because FRC teams can use so many raw materials, but because FTC is about strategy and design-refinement. FRC teams don't have as much time to refine and test their designs, so FTC robots are often more reliable. This isn't to say there aren't great FRC bots build entirely from raw materials, but I think kit robots and custom robots are on an even playing field.

There are, and always will be, diminishing returns on how many resources a team has. A team with the base $650 Tetrix kit can still be very competitive this season.

Going to be an interesting trade off to see where everyone decides to go with this. I know I will be taking it as a challenge to not use a single Tetrix or Matitx part (besides motors and such) simply because I like a good challenge, and I don't actually compete. But yet again, with Tetrix being so expensive you could very simply waterjet/laser your robot in less than a day (depending on complexity) after you put a lot of time into designing things precisely based on prototypes from tetrix/vex/matrix parts. It could also be cheaper, depending on the level of sponsorship you have.

Nonetheless, About 24 hours to go! This year will be fun.

- Andrew

[crollison]

Where in the manual did you see the rule about welding? I've been looking through it and I'm sure I'm missing it but where is it? I want to see it with my own eyes before I start getting excited. Thanks.

[chi-town-biker]

The manual doesn't explicitly allow welding. Rather, last year's rule R14.d which prohibited welding is missing from this year's manual.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by JesseK

It will be cool to see pure WCD's in FTC rather than the standard cobbled-together amalgamations that I've seen in the past. And given that (currently) there's no weight limit, I don't see why the lower frame rails can't simply be solid steel extrusions welded together in order to get a massive traction bonus. A 50-lb 8-motor box-on-wheels with a c.g. 1" off the ground, proper gearing and the LEGO tires that I (still!) only saw 2 teams with at champs this year?? I'd take that as a partner in FTC any day.

Did these teams use the plastic hubs for the lego wheels or simply stretch the tire over a Tetrix wheel? I like the idea of using the nice rubber tire, but connecting to that plastic hub in a reliable way would be the challenge for me.