FRC Blogged - KOP Evolution

[AlecMataloni]

This is a huge step in the right direction; however, I'm a bit worried about the voucher deal.

Teams that might not be able to make a custom drivetrain that can match the kitbot in reliability might just opt out after seeing the savings. Of course, every team needs to make its own decisions; but, as a person who wants to see a net increase in competitiveness throughout FRC, I'm worried about how this move by FIRST and AndyMark may effect that goal. Maybe I'm just overthinking things, but who knows. I'm probably wrong.

Overall, I'm happy with the move to belts. I trust Cyber Blue's analysis and I think that many teams could use an introduction to the use of belts in an FRC drivetrain.

[Travis Hoffman]

Free SuperShifters for everyone!

I wonder if Gates will offer more belt/pulley options to all teams?

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by AlecMataloni

This is a huge step in the right direction; however, I'm a bit worried about the voucher deal.

Teams that might not be able to make a custom drivetrain that can match the kitbot in reliability might just opt out after seeing the savings. Of course, every team needs to make its own decisions; but, as a person who wants to see a net increase in competitiveness throughout FRC, I'm worried about how this move by FIRST and AndyMark may effect that goal. Maybe I'm just overthinking things, but who knows. I'm probably wrong.

Overall, I'm happy with the move to belts. I trust Cyber Blue's analysis and I think that many teams could use an introduction to the use of belts in an FRC drivetrain.

I'm happy with this move as well, but I think I understand your concern. Hopefully all teams can evaluate their resources and experience/skills well enough before making this decision instead of just seeing a voucher for a large amount and making a perfunctory choice. Hopefully no teams screw themselves over.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I'm happy with this move as well, but I think I understand your concern. Hopefully all teams can evaluate their resources and experience/skills well enough before making this decision instead of just seeing a voucher for a large amount and making a perfunctory choice. Hopefully no teams screw themselves over.

I would like to think that most teams enjoy the freedom of making their own choice instead of having it made for them by a big daddy overseeing entity.

And if a relative few teams make the wrong choice, they will be responsible enough to deal with the consequences of their own actions, and others within the community will be kind enough to reach out to help them.

Because it would be a shame if the overseeing entity denied this freedom of choice from an entire community because they felt they had to "protect" a relative few ill-prepared teams from themselves.

Thank you, FIRST and AndyMark, for bringing more freedom of choice to the *individual* teams. What a wonderful concept.

[rachelholladay]

Me gusta. Me gusta mucho. Instead of piling up more C-Channel we can get SuperShifters again. I'm glad that the PDV list includes electronics as well. A few hundred dollars of controls parts could make me one happy kid..

[David Doerr]

I'm leading a rookie team in 2013 and we've been active for the past month or two trying to prepare for the season. I submitted a reply to the FRC blog and I did my best to be diplomatic. I'm going to be more candid here.

I think it stinks that rookies don't have the same opportunity for a voucher that veteran teams do.

[Mk.32]

Originally Posted by David Doerr

I'm leading a rookie team in 2013 and we've been active for the past month or two trying to prepare for the season. I submitted a reply to the FRC blog and I did my best to be diplomatic. I'm going to be more candid here.

I think it stinks that rookies don't have the same opportunity for a voucher that veteran teams do.

Well to be blunt as a rookie team do you guys have the abilities to custom fabricate a drive train that is solid and proven for your first year of competition? And the KOP drive you will be getting will be more solid then ever with toughboxes and a belt drive.

Even if rookies could choose the $450 of AM parts wouldn't most of them just use it all up buying drive parts that the Kit Frame gives them in the first place?

[F22Rapture]

Originally Posted by Mk.32

Well to be blunt as a rookie team do you guys have the abilities to custom fabricate a drive train that is solid and proven for your first year of competition? And the KOP drive you will be getting will be more solid then ever with toughboxes and a belt drive.

Even if rookies could choose the $450 of AM parts wouldn't most of them just use it all up buying drive parts that the Kit Frame gives them in the first place?

Not to mention that frankly, the kitbot/kitbot on steroids is a superior drivetrain to many if not most of the custom drivetrains many teams build from scratch. Excluding of course some of the teams that have been working at it for several years such as 254, etc.

[Nemo]

This is fantastic. Really, really good move.

[sanddrag]

Best news I've heard in a long time. And I'm amazed that FIRST is providing us such detailed information so early. I hope to see more of this. I have more kitbots piled up than I know what to do with. I really don't need another.

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

I wonder if Gates will offer more belt/pulley options to all teams?

This is a very good question, and one that I share as well. I'm also wondering if there will be a nicer way for low resource teams to interface to attach these belts to the axles/the AM wheel profile.

One can only hope,
- Sunny G.

[Qbot2640]

Originally Posted by AlecMataloni

This is a huge step in the right direction; however, I'm a bit worried about the voucher deal.

Teams that might not be able to make a custom drivetrain that can match the kitbot in reliability might just opt out after seeing the savings...

I didn't read it that way...Correct me if I'm wrong, but there won't be a savings: each team will still spend the same amount for the KOP, just some will get fewer parts and a "gift card" from AndyMark.

[LeelandS]

I think the main concern is this (indirectly) favors veteran teams, and leaves less experienced/ less advanced teams where they are.

Many teams in FRC rely on the Kitbot to have a functioning drive base. Those teams are almost definitely going to opt to hold on to the Kitbot. Other teams who don't use the Kitbot base and have an alternative (like sheet metal) can get a $450 voucher from AndyMark for a bunch of cool gadgets to use on the robot.

I don't know if this has been ruled on yet, but I've seen discussion that because the voucher is a KoP item, it doesn't count towards the Bill of Materials, effectively raising those teams' robot budgets to $3950 (or $450 than other teams if the budget isn't $3500 this year).

I love that teams now have the option, but I'm afraid, for the time being, there might be a larger gap between upper and lower tier teams.

That said, I'm hoping that if FIRST continues this, it will push many teams to find a way to evolve out of the Kitbot chassis and develop a new structure of drive base.

[jason701802]

Originally Posted by LeelandS

I don't know if this has been ruled on yet, but I've seen discussion that because the voucher is a KoP item, it doesn't count towards the Bill of Materials, effectively raising those teams' robot budgets to $3950 (or $450 than other teams if the budget isn't $3500 this year).

That's assuming the kitbot is value-less, which it certainly is not.

It's interesting that the kitbot kit is $400 (of course that may change for the new kit), so a team could take the voucher, buy the kitbot kit, and still have another $50 to spend however they wish. Unless I'm missing something, it's essentially the same as not taking the voucher, and then getting $50 in AndyMark credit for free.

EDIT: looking more closely, it seems that this is the true kitbot kit for last year. It's $550. It still leaves the possibility that one could get everything they want from the kitbot for less than the value of the voucher, and still have some spending money. It's difficult to make this judgement call without knowing what the new kit will cost.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by jason701802

That's assuming the kitbot is value-less, which it certainly is not.

It's interesting that the kitbot kit is $400 (of course that may change for the new kit), so a team could take the voucher, buy the kitbot kit, and still have another $50 to spend however they wish. Unless I'm missing something, it's essentially the same as not taking the voucher, and then getting $50 in AndyMark credit for free.

A few things to note:
1. The above kit uses the old FIRST wheels.
2. The above kit uses roller chain for four of the wheels and nothing for the front 2, instead of a six belt solution.
3. Only comes with 2 CIMs (I'm not sure if the new kitbot comes with 4 though)
4. You have to wait to get that kitbot a few days rather than getting it on Kickoff Day.