FRC Blogged - KOP Evolution

[bardd]

Originally Posted by jason701802

That's assuming the kitbot is value-less, which it certainly is not.

It's interesting that the kitbot kit is $400 (of course that may change for the new kit), so a team could take the voucher, buy the kitbot kit, and still have another $50 to spend however they wish. Unless I'm missing something, it's essentially the same as not taking the voucher, and then getting $50 in AndyMark credit for free.

Wrong. The 2013 kitbot will have mini-toughboxes, not CIMple-boxes, which is another ~35$, and contains 4 CIMs (well, it did in 2012), not 2, which is another ~50$, so doing that you would actually lose money.

edit: Chris is me got ahead of me...

[jason701802]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

A few things to note:
1. The above kit uses the old FIRST wheels.
2. The above kit uses roller chain for four of the wheels and nothing for the front 2, instead of a six belt solution.
3. Only comes with 2 CIMs (I'm not sure if the new kitbot comes with 4 though)
4. You have to wait to get that kitbot a few days rather than getting it on Kickoff Day.

1 & 2) Yes, but it's not unreasonable that they would release this years kit at a similar price point.
3) The KoP has never come with 4 CIMs, why would they start now? (This is also dependent upon whether the CIMs are considered part of the "2013 AndyMark Kit of Parts Drive Base". I wouldn't consider them as such, but I'm not FIRST)
4) That's might not be a bad trade off for $50.

I did miss the part about the ToughBox Minis

Also, see my edit to my post above

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by bardd

Wrong. The 2013 kitbot will have mini-toughboxes, not CIMple-boxes, which is another ~35$, and contains 4 CIMs (well, it did in 2012), not 2, which is another ~50$, so doing that you would actually lose money.

edit: Chris is me got ahead of me...

The 2012 only had 2 CIM motors.

[Adrian Clark]

I really hope that they release the new kitbot specs prior to 10/18. They say that it will be belt drive, but gates doesn't make a 6-bolt pattern sprocket that would fit onto a wheel so the only option would be for gates to make a custom sprocket just for the kit (unlikely) or for the kitbot to switch to a live axle system (also unlikely). Either way it will be a massive step up from the current kitbot.

The whole point of the kitbot is that it's easy to make, reliable, strong and simple. I wouldn't expect First to release a kitbot that isn't those things, and if they can pull that off with a belt drive then that'll be a drive train better than most teams can custom make.

[scottandme]

I'm interested to see the layout of the kitbot chassis using gates belt. The stated numbers (10.7:1 reduction and ~10fps with 6" wheels) suggest that there will be no further reduction via belt, so I wouldn't count on multiple pulley sizes.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Adrian Clark

They say that it will be belt drive, but gates doesn't make a 6-bolt pattern sprocket that would fit onto a wheel so the only option would be for gates to make a custom sprocket just for the kit (unlikely)

I could easily see a extrusion made with the six hole pattern required for the standard wheel hub made for the kit. 1000 kits, 6000 sprockets plus spares for purchase. Add on a two or three year commitment it could be done very economically.

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by Adrian Clark

I really hope that they release the new kitbot specs prior to 10/18. They say that it will be belt drive, but gates doesn't make a 6-bolt pattern sprocket that would fit onto a wheel so the only option would be for gates to make a custom sprocket just for the kit (unlikely) or for the kitbot to switch to a live axle system (also unlikely). Either way it will be a massive step up from the current kitbot.

The whole point of the kitbot is that it's easy to make, reliable, strong and simple. I wouldn't expect First to release a kitbot that isn't those things, and if they can pull that off with a belt drive then that'll be a drive train better than most teams can custom make.

True,

Although if FIRST is working with AM, AM/Andy could make an extrusion (with the 6 bolt pattern) for the pulley and then send it out for machining (most likely a boring operation and parting).

-RC

[Adrian Clark]

Originally Posted by R.C.

True,

Although if FIRST is working with AM, AM/Andy could make an extrusion (with the 6 bolt pattern) for the pulley and then send it out for machining (most likely a boring operation and parting).

-RC

I was thinking the same thing, if they were to use a custom extrusion I would hope they include a 1.125 bore hole in the pulley extrusion. That would keep the sprocket concentric with the wheel and if the hole was extruded instead of bored they could save a lot of material and end up with a very light well priced product.

However I'm sure First/Gates/Am want make the kitbot as simple as possible and would want to use existing off the self components, but that might not be possible or plausible.

The other thing that this kit might bring us is new belt drive products from andymark, as belt seems to be the direction FRC is going in.

Edit: You and Indysam think alike

[MattC9]

I would be 100% excited if AM/ gates released a belt line for FRC, and if the belts were a little thinner I would greatly appericeate it.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by David Doerr

I'm leading a rookie team in 2013 and we've been active for the past month or two trying to prepare for the season. I submitted a reply to the FRC blog and I did my best to be diplomatic. I'm going to be more candid here.

I think it stinks that rookies don't have the same opportunity for a voucher that veteran teams do.

I run a good team and know a great deal about drivetrains. 973's drivetrains are top tier.

If I walked today and started a rookie team, even with experienced students/mentors and a stocked shop, I would run the KOP drive as a rookie.

I think preventing rookies from accidentally making the wrong choice is a great decision.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I run a good team and know a great deal about drivetrains. 973's drivetrains are top tier.

If I walked today and started a rookie team, even with experienced students/mentors and a stocked shop, I would run the KOP drive as a rookie.

I think preventing rookies from accidentally making the wrong choice is a great decision.

I think there is a very significant portion of veteran teams that would benefit more from using the KOP chassis than giving them a $450 voucher. How come it isn't in our best interest to prevent them from making the wrong choice?


In 2011 half of FRC couldn't put up more than one tube in a match or launch a minibot, and there weren't that many rookies.

[David Doerr]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I run a good team and know a great deal about drivetrains. 973's drivetrains are top tier.

If I walked today and started a rookie team, even with experienced students/mentors and a stocked shop, I would run the KOP drive as a rookie.

I think preventing rookies from accidentally making the wrong choice is a great decision.

I'm certain you do know a lot more than I about drivetrains, and I likely would agree with you after I see the game that the KOP drive would be used for, but...

...suppose you had already raised and spent money on a C-base chassis, two toughboxes, CIMs, along with other components so that your team had something to work with during the pre-season time period. It's tough for a rookie team to get those $$ together. Wouldn't you want to be able to use a voucher for parts other than those you had already purchased - the same as other teams are able to do - rather than receiving near duplicates in the KOP?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by David Doerr

I'm certain you do know a lot more than I about drivetrains, and I likely would agree with you after I see the game that the KOP drive would be used for, but...

...suppose you had already raised and spent money on a C-base chassis, two toughboxes, CIMs, along with other components so that your team had something to work with during the pre-season time period. It's tough for a rookie team to get those $$ together. Wouldn't you want to be able to use a voucher for parts other than those you had already purchased - the same as other teams are able to do - rather than receiving near duplicates in the KOP?

Sounds like a practice bot to me!

[EricH]

Not all rookie teams are even in a position to fundraise enough to buy a Kitbot at this stage of the game. In fact, I would say that you're in the 1% or so that are. If I was a rookie, and saw that I could get a frame or $450, what would I go for? Probably the $450--not realizing how hard it is to build a custom drivetrain.

What FIRST is doing is, they are forcing the rookies to take a drivetrain and work with it during the season.

Maybe some of the rookies are doing that in the offseason. Well, I don't suppose that those rookies can repurpose some of that material into, oh, I don't know, superstructure? How about spare parts?

You're not wasting money. You're building inventory. And if your programmers don't have a testbed working by the time the real robot is handed over to them 2 days before bag, that's their problem. Practice robot, anybody?

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by David Doerr

...suppose you had already raised and spent money on a C-base chassis, two toughboxes, CIMs, along with other components ...

And just let them sit on the shelf until kickoff, because you can't fabricate anything you'll use in competition except during the 6 weeks, right?