[FTC]: Opinion on lifting robots

[LeelandS]

Originally Posted by ksafin

Ooh, does stacking count as lifting?

From Game Manual 1.3.4 End Game

"In order to earn the Lifting Bonus, the lifted Robot must be fully supported by the Alliance partner’s Robot and not by any other game object (i.e. 100% of the weight of a robot must be supported by the Alliance partner’s Robot)."

Therefore, it seems to me that, as long as one robot is COMPLETELY supported by another, it counts as being lifted for the bonus.

Originally Posted by Camren

Optimized lifting means having a robot get up on top of your robot. That is 18 inches without any lifting and then make up the last 6 inches with air cylinders or maybe some other sort of "Stinger"

The challenge then is, how do you get a robot up 18"? A ramp of some sort for that purpose would be quite steep.

[ksafin]

Originally Posted by LeelandS

From Game Manual 1.3.4 End Game

"In order to earn the Lifting Bonus, the lifted Robot must be fully supported by the Alliance partner’s Robot and not by any other game object (i.e. 100% of the weight of a robot must be supported by the Alliance partner’s Robot)."

Therefore, it seems to me that, as long as one robot is COMPLETELY supported by another, it counts as being lifted for the bonus.



The challenge then is, how do you get a robot up 18"? A ramp of some sort for that purpose would be quite steep.

Not if you make it long.

Technically if you had some sort of sheet of metal at the top of your robot that folds out into a ramp, and you're serious about being a ramp bot, you should have some kind of way to expand the ramp to be longer to not make it a steep adventure.

[LeelandS]

That's plausible. If that's the plan, instead of one sheet that flips down to make a ramp, you could have two sheets that flip down to make one continuous ramp. As long as they can be locked in place to prevent them collapsing, that's definitely possible.

That would be quite a sight. A "Super ramp" that flips down so an alliance partner can climb on top. That would be one monster of a climb.

[ksafin]

Originally Posted by LeelandS

That's plausible. If that's the plan, instead of one sheet that flips down to make a ramp, you could have two sheets that flip down to make one continuous ramp. As long as they can be locked in place to prevent them collapsing, that's definitely possible.

That would be quite a sight. A "Super ramp" that flips down so an alliance partner can climb on top. That would be one monster of a climb.

Yup, pretty much.

Another design that came across my mind was kind of like a forklift type design where you have a forklift that can get from the floor to the very top of the robot. Attached to the carriage of the forklift is simply an 18x18 sheet of strong metal. It's in vertical position when game starts, but then at end game, this 18x18 metal is expanded; its basically now flat with the floor.

A robot can then get on the metal sheet, and the forklift of the lifting bot can raise the robot & the metal sheet to the top of the bot, and then viola.

[Camren]

Originally Posted by ksafin

Yup, pretty much.

Another design that came across my mind was kind of like a forklift type design where you have a forklift that can get from the floor to the very top of the robot. Attached to the carriage of the forklift is simply an 18x18 sheet of strong metal. It's in vertical position when game starts, but then at end game, this 18x18 metal is expanded; its basically now flat with the floor.

A robot can then get on the metal sheet, and the forklift of the lifting bot can raise the robot & the metal sheet to the top of the bot, and then viola.

How do you counter weight the other bot.

[DanielH]

My personal opinion is that lifting your partner using some sort of ramp at the end game is a great way to make a bunch of points in a short amount of time. However, I would hate to really completely on the lifting bonus for points as you would be relying on your partner. If for any reason your partner couldn't go up your ramp your entire design would be useless.

[LeelandS]

Originally Posted by ksafin

Yup, pretty much.

Another design that came across my mind was kind of like a forklift type design where you have a forklift that can get from the floor to the very top of the robot. Attached to the carriage of the forklift is simply an 18x18 sheet of strong metal. It's in vertical position when game starts, but then at end game, this 18x18 metal is expanded; its basically now flat with the floor.

A robot can then get on the metal sheet, and the forklift of the lifting bot can raise the robot & the metal sheet to the top of the bot, and then viola.

If you were to do this, there would be two things I would make sure you push on the design (and I'm sure you've already considered them, but there's no harm repeating them on the forum).

First, and most obvious, that forklift needs to be extremely sturdy and strong. It needs to support a robot up 24". Not only does it need to actually be able to LIFT the robot up, it needs to be able to HOLD the robot up, even after power is cut to the field, since points aren't totaled until all parts come to rest. So that forklift needs to be strong enough to lift, sturdy enough to hold the robot, and able to lock itself at the top (or any place from bottom to top).

Secondly, were you to design a forklift, I would try to make it more like an elevator. Forklifts generally lift things that don't really move (wood, metal, etc), but this is lifting a robot. A robot that, probably, has wheels. Therefore, it can roll. And I would be terrified if, for whatever reason, the robot going up started to roll, and then plummeted. So I would build it more like an elevator. Have the place to drive on, and 3 "walls" extending from the plate to prevent robots from rolling off. Maybe even design a door to cover that last opening. Alternatively, you could design your forklift to be less that 18", and have it lift a robot up from between their wheels (assuming they have a large enough gap in the center of their drive base), thus preventing them from rolling and taking the robot with them. Though this seems like a design that would be able to support a lesser number of robots.

[Paxorf]

Remember that there's only a 5 point bonus for each inch. So 18" would only give you 85 points after the first 30 points for one inch. And imagine how much space on a robot a lifting mechanism or ramp would take up. Plus there's only 30 seconds (End Game) to complete the lift.

I think it's more efficient to go for one inch with a simple mechanism. But hey, I wouldn't have thought teams would go 10'+ in the air last year, so who knows!

[Camren]

Originally Posted by Paxorf

Remember that there's only a 5 point bonus for each inch. So 18" would only give you 85 points after the first 30 points for one inch. And imagine how much space on a robot a lifting mechanism or ramp would take up. Plus there's only 30 seconds (End Game) to complete the lift.

I think it's more efficient to go for one inch with a simple mechanism. But hey, I wouldn't have thought teams would go 10'+ in the air last year, so who knows!

I agree. The max number of points period for a sole lifting bot is 145 and as calculated on another thread yesterday the max points are 1071 so your not gonna score enough. sure you could de-score mat rings and block opponents but you still wont score enough points and especially if its two defensive bots in a match.

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by Camren

I agree. The max number of points period for a sole lifting bot is 145 and as calculated on another thread yesterday the max points are 1071 so your not gonna score enough. sure you could de-score mat rings and block opponents but you still wont score enough points and especially if its two defensive bots in a match.

The first point total was calculated wrong the actual total number of points is 1,727. Only 145 max from lifting a robot.

For a grand total of...1,727 Points

Originally Posted by ksafin

Yeah, that's true.

To be honest, I was really looking toward having a claw capable of picking up multiple rings. Like either 2 or 3. In this case, you obviously have to adjust the tolerance to say, 6 oz.

FYI - Let's make that 2 rings max

<GR2>Robots may Possess no more than two (2) Rings at any time. If a Robot is Possessing more than
2 Rings, the Alliance will be penalized ten (10) points per Ring plus an additional 10 points for
each 5 second interval that this situation continues. Rings will not be legally Scored while a Robot
Possesses more than two (2) Rings (i.e. the extra Ring will not count).

[Andrew Remmers]

I think lifting will be a fun part of the game, but I don't think minimizing movement from a mechanism is the way to go about it to get to 2 feet from 18 inches.

I am having a smaller more manageable ramp, and it will lead up to a platform that is at about 8 inches tall this will create a very nice angle to drive up, something most drive trains should be able to handle without much problem. From there it will lift up with a scissor lift powered by a lead screw. That oh did I mention 6 motors will be powering this?

- Andrew

[Paxorf]

Originally Posted by Joyride_67_1902

I think lifting will be a fun part of the game, but I don't think minimizing movement from a mechanism is the way to go about it to get to 2 feet from 18 inches.

I am having a smaller more manageable ramp, and it will lead up to a platform that is at about 8 inches tall this will create a very nice angle to drive up, something most drive trains should be able to handle without much problem. From there it will lift up with a scissor lift powered by a lead screw. That oh did I mention 6 motors will be powering this?

- Andrew

Wow that sounds really cool! Can't wait to see something like that in action. Though I'm having trouble imagining how you'd have room for anything else on your robot.

[Andrew Remmers]

Originally Posted by Paxorf

Wow that sounds really cool! Can't wait to see something like that in action. Though I'm having trouble imagining how you'd have room for anything else on your robot.

Well I can't actually compete, so If this bot gets built then it will be pretty cool pet project. You'll see when I post something about it. Also I don't use a single Tetrix part.

- Andrew

[Camren]

Originally Posted by Joyride_67_1902

I am having a smaller more manageable ramp, and it will lead up to a platform that is at about 8 inches tall this will create a very nice angle to drive up, something most drive trains should be able to handle without much problem. From there it will lift up with a scissor lift powered by a lead screw. That oh did I mention 6 motors will be powering this?

- Andrew

I'm sure I don't have to point out the obvious here. But still keep, keep every part of that mechanism well greased with industrial lubricants. ie if the lead screw is shiny then something is wrong. Also the actual scissor mechanism to should have any sort of scrapping marks. But like I said that is the obvious.

[ksafin]

For the record, since somebody asked about weight counterbalancing.

Since FTC for some odd reason has no weight limit, you could technically load your bot with whatever you wanted as long as it doesn't violate any other rules.

So just get a heavy block of steel and put it in some safe place on the bot, and it should be good enough for counterbalance (and I mean heavy).

Also, an idea of one of my teammates was to have some kind of linear slide system that extended out the back of your robot with a weight that would also slide out on said linear slide to counter even further.

Because since your pivot point is something like the mid-center of your robot where you're picking up your teammate, the further the weight from this pivot, the higher torque you're getting to counteract the torque from the robots weight.

Add that far distance & weight to your own robots weight, and it should provide more than enough torque to counter-act the other robots weight.