Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Is there a reason you can't run the teams without the schools? They shouldn't be able to hold your funding hostage.

As easy as that sounds, it isn't so simple.

1. Who would supervise us?
2. Where can we get access to a shop?
3. Who would supervise us(again)?
4. How would we miss school for competition, as parents don't like unexcused absences.
5. What if someone gets hurt?
6. What about insurance?
7. What about storage?

Another huge problem would be figuring out who "owns" the current robot and material? The school does (in most cases), so we would be starting from scratch. We would need new everything, from a cRIO to plywood to aluminum to wheels.

And to make matters even worse, we have less than 4 months to kickoff to sort this out, and I'm sure there are many other problems that I have missed.

So yes, there are multiple reasons as to why teams can't run without school support.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Gregor

As easy as that sounds, it isn't so simple.

1. Who would supervise us?
2. Where can we get access to a shop?
3. Who would supervise us(again)?
4. How would we miss school for competition, as parents don't like unexcused absences.
5. What if someone gets hurt?
6. What about insurance?
7. What about storage?

Another huge problem would be figuring out who "owns" the current robot and material? The school does (in most cases), so we would be starting from scratch. We would need new everything, from a cRIO to plywood to aluminum to wheels.

And to make matters even worse, we have less than 4 months to kickoff to sort this out, and I'm sure there are many other problems that I have missed.

So yes, there are multiple reasons as to why teams can't run without school support.

I hope the teachers get things sorted out so life goes back to normal but as you said, you do have 4 months which is better than no time!

1. Have your current leaders up and left or is this under assumption. Parents? Sponsors?

2. Who says you need a metal shop to make a robot? There are a ton of successful teams that operate out of garages, vacant buildings, and parents basements using hand tools, power tools, and a chop saw. It can be done my first team has been in their coaches basement for 8 seasons with much success!

3. See 1.

4. Talk to your principle/head of your school.

5. Good question! This may depend on where you end up meeting/working out of. Even when we met at our coaches house we signed liability forms and had shop training.

6. You have me there!

7. Depends on your workspace but if you keep it organized you won't need much space.

I wish it was easier to answer these questions but maybe you should also talk to other teams in your area and around Ontario.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

I hope the teachers get things sorted out so life goes back to normal

The teachers are completely in the right doing this. Its the Government of Ontario that needs to get things sorted out.

Originally Posted by BrendanB

Have your current leaders up and left or is this under assumption.

No, our current leaders have not left at this time, but I'm talking about Ontario teams in general, not my specific team.

Originally Posted by BrendanB

Maybe you should also talk to other teams in your area and around Ontario.

Part of the reason I wrote the above post is because I have talked to a few members of some other Ontario teams. The general consensus is"oh we will just split from the school." I'm trying to convoy that this isn't as easy as it sounds.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Gregor

The teachers are completely in the right doing this. Its the Government of Ontario that needs to get things sorted out.



No, our current leaders have not left at this time, but I'm talking about Ontario teams in general, not my specific team.



Part of the reason I wrote the above post is because I have talked to a few members of some other Ontario teams. The general consensus is"oh we will just split from the school." I'm trying to convoy that this isn't as easy as it sounds.

I never said who was at fault. I don't know a lot about either side so I'm not going to comment about who needs to fix a side. My comment was more towards fixing the problem.

Thats good that you still have your team leaders!

Yes and no. I haven't witnessed a team splitting from a school but I have been on both teams (school based and community). It is hard to look into a team and say how difficult or easy it would be to move out from your school. Some teams have known resources at their fingertips that they use outside of the school or have the ability to use but haven't yet.

[KelliV]

I don't know much about the government in Ontario, but I know that Chicago kids are effected kind of in the same way due to the strike this week. I am not sure about what they are doing for clubs but I know the schools went to IHSA (the Illinois High School Athletic Assoc.) and asked for permission to hold practices and games with back up coaches/volunteers (which would work for FRC). Is there a governing body in Ontario that you would be able to go to in order to request the same type of thing? Does this only effect the public schools or are private schools striking too? Could you partner with a private or magnet school and share facilities?

As far as the information posted on the Chicago Teacher's strikes, and any strikes, I encourage you all to look into both sides of the stories, not just what the union one sheet says.

At the end of the day I just wish everyone would remember that education isn't about what you get paid or how many hours you work, it's about the kids. Some kids just want to go to school and play with robots, I don't think this is too much to ask. A huge thank you goes out to all the volunteers that don't get paid a dime to teach kids STEM.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Ether

Chicago. Average teacher salary: $76,000.00, not including benefits. Offered 16% pay raise. Went on strike.

Your post is comical at best and similar to what I would expect from someone who has never stepped into a real classroom.
If you did, I'd laugh even more.

Cmon, tempt me in another thread.

Real talk.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

As much as I want to agree, I think we are better off setting this discussion in a non political direction. Is there a reason you can't run the teams without the schools? They shouldn't be able to hold your funding hostage.

Sorry Tom, but I take issue with this post.
What was the purpose behind FIRST being involved with a school to begin with? the Partnership with mentors?
You make it sound like the teachers are the "bad guys" preventing students from participation in FIRST.
The public always forgets that teachers have families like everyone else......and want whats best for their own kids as well.

[F22Rapture]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Sorry Tom, but I take issue with this post.
What was the purpose behind FIRST being involved with a school to begin with? the Partnership with mentors?

It's much easier to get funding when you're affiliated with a school, there's a common meeting place, several if not most high schools have some sort of shop or lab with open space to work, almost all high schools have computers that can be used for CAD and programming, you don't have to worry about bathrooms, water, etc.

[Taylor]

All -
Emotions are raw right now, especially among those of us in the teaching community. For us teachers - please realize that people involved in FIRST are genuinely interested and committed to seeing a great education to our students - in and out of the classroom, in and out of North America.

For the non-teachers - please realize that teachers have been knocked back on our heels for decades, we're being programmed by our unions and other entities to take issue with just about everything, and the proverbial camel has had just about enough straws.

As a sports analogy, perhaps it would be better to think of these situations as the referee lockout in the NFL - the refs want to go to work and do a good job, but are severely limited due to forces beyond their control.

Nobody wants to see FIRST teams suffer, nobody wants to see education suffer, nobody wants to see teachers suffer (except perhaps Ether ). As difficult as it is, let's not turn this into a political discussion - rather than throw things at the presumed sources of the problem, let's go about creating solutions. We're used to working in a 6-week constraint - now we've got 4 months. No problem, right?

A big stumbling block I see in separating from school is losing the tax exemptions afforded to schools. Is there a Canadian equivalent to a 503c?

[Gdeaver]

So the bomb went off in Ontario. Well all across the US the school system is about to implode. Many school systems have shown no fiscal restraint and have racked up massive unsustainable debt load. Public union teachers have used their political money clout to get more and more benefits and salary for less work. Unfunded pension plans are a crisis every where. For some one to work for 30 years and then pay them a large portion of their ending salary for the rest of their life with full benefits is a nice deal. Unfortunately mathematically it doesn't work. Greece is finding that out now. Our team has already had our school district divorce us. We are now independent. It was painful. Every team that is married to a school system should begin thinking about what they would do not if but when this happens to them. First has this great vision of future growth, however I don't believe they understand the severity of the school problem and FIRST is at this time reliant on the public school system in a big way. Ontario and Chicago are in the news now. This is beginning to happen all across the country. What will your team do. Have you thought about it.

[Ether]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Your post is comical at best and similar to what I would expect from someone who has never stepped into a real classroom.
If you did, I'd laugh even more.

Cmon, tempt me in another thread.

You don't strike me as the sort of person with whom it would be possible to have a reasoned discussion. So thanks, but no thanks.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Your post is comical at best and similar to what I would expect from someone who has never stepped into a real classroom.
If you did, I'd laugh even more.

Cmon, tempt me in another thread.

Real talk.

Ether made a statement and then backed off to avoid a political discussion. I respect him for that (whether I agree with him or not.)

You chose to keep it going, in a confrontational manor. Why?

[Gregor]

Lets leave egos, political opinions, and sarcasm at the doorstep and discuss the issue at hand.

[Racer26]

For those in Ontario: Not to worry, Federal Minister of Labour Lisa Raitt will just legislate the teachers back to working extra-curriculars. After all, she's legislated just about every other employee threatening work action back to work in the last 2 years.

</sarcasm>

In all seriousness though, OSSTF (the secondary school teacher's federation) was only threatening killing extra curriculars on wednesday (yesterday) for one day. Its the elementary teachers that said they would can them altogether until something is done to fix it.

Also, remember, it's not the school preventing you from participating, therefore they shouldn't hold the funding. Its the teachers union who are refusing to do extra-curriculars. I remember during work-to-rule years ago, our club stayed alive because the teacher wanted it to, going against his union.

EDIT: I suspect many long-standing FRC mentors will have this mentality too. Its about the kids. Not about their political battle with Queen's Park.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

Also, remember, it's not the school preventing you from participating, therefore they shouldn't hold the funding. Its the teachers union who are refusing to do extra-curriculars. I remember during work-to-rule years ago, our club stayed alive because the teacher wanted it to, going against his union.

In our district we could not meet without the teachers sponsors, so no teacher no school team.

BTW Teacher sponsors rock!