**FIRST EMAIL**/2013 Championship Registration/2013 FRC Season Dates and Deadlines/As

[Siri]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Why should Hawaii teams who cant log in to sign up for CMP on the waitlist vs. US mainland teams, be penalized to fall further on the waitlist.

In the past, we waited almost 20-30 minutes of constantly trying to sign in to sign up for CMP.

Honest question: what's the difference between the mainland and OCONUS signups? We've had similar waits for TIMS, and we're in Pennsylvania. I thought it was just a location-independent server overload (or some much more technical term).

[Gregor]

So lets see if I understand the wildcard slots correctly.

If a team has won RCA, RAS, EI, or the regional at a previous regional, the alliance captain, first pick, and second pick will qualify in that order based on how many teams from the winning alliance have qualified by winning one of the aforementioned awards?*

If a team has pre-qualified in anyway, (i.e. HOF, pre registering), this is not applicable?

Is all this correct?




*that is the run on sentence of run on sentences

[Mr. Lim]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

I think Canadian teams who attend Waterloo and GTR West are partying tonight.

And the ones who were planning on going to GTR-E are reconsidering?

I think there might be some unintended consequences here... I wouldn't want a great event like GTR-E to have difficulty attracting teams because of the Wild Card system.

...BUT overall I definitely think it's a step in the right direction!

[Lil' Lavery]

The new wild card system is far from being perfectly fair, but show me a system that is fair. I can't believe anyone would actually object to that change, as it's clearly more "fair" (in terms of allocating spots to deserving/succesful teams) than the previous system. I don't see how anyone could argue that it's not an improvement over previous years.

And I'd hardly categorize attending an event where you have to compete against a team good enough to earn multiple bids to championship as "lucky."


That being said, I did propose something similar in another thread, but with a caveat.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

My thought on that was to draw from teams who attended either event. So, for your example, both the teams at Chesapeake and Connecticut would be eligible to fill 181's extra spot and would be sorted by whatever criteria is selected.

Obviously, this does increase the chances of ties in a point-based system. Additionally, any biasing in the ranking system towards running more qualification matches (FiM/MAR rankings reward 2 points per qualification win) or larger events (FIRST's proposed ranking system would award 50 points to the #1 seed at a 50 team event but only 35 points for a #1 seed at a 35 team event) would have to be considered as well. But I think this is a less fundamentally flawed system than encouraging later season events.

[Michael Blake]

I've been told by very reliable folks that the District Model is coming here to Texas in the next 2-3 years... and that the number of Texas teams, as it stands now, that will qualify for CHAMPIONSHIP is 16 based upon an accumulation of points...

The TOP 16 Texas point accumulators go to the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP!

This new approach, adding teams from the Regional FINALIST pool, seems like a "bridge" to start to laying track for the coming District Model for the rest of FRC FIRST.


IMHO... when the District Model becomes dominant, IRI will rise even further in relevance and prestige... UNLESS Districts are able to build a stable of super-capable teams to feed to CHAMPIONSHIP like they've done in Michigan.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

IMHO... when the District Model becomes dominant, IRI will rise even further in relevance and prestige... UNLESS Districts are able to build a stable of super-capable teams to feed to CHAMPIONSHIP like they've done in Michigan.

Are you implying that Championships will become weaker due to this system?

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Are you implying that Championships will become weaker due to this system?

SURE...

Use Texas as an example... I'll say that AFTER the Top 8 teams domiciled in Texas (some prominent Texas FIRSTers would argue "Top 6") you get a pretty steep drop in competitive (on the field) capabilities...

SO, being generous with my estimate, in the District Model, you'd have about 8 teams regularly qualifying for CHAMPIONSHIP that probably wouldn't qualify as often as Alliance-WINNERS in the Regional format.

District Model, IMO, broadens the eligibility for CHAMPIONSHIP to LESS competitive (on the field) teams...

[Gregor]

So lets say those same 8 teams went off to win 2-3 more regionals each, and maybe an EI or an RCA along the way. The spot that they took up goes to the waiting list (last year) which has no corolation at all to robot performance. Now when they qualify multiple times, their additional spot(s) goes to a team that is in the position they are from a high performing robot. In Texas, the next 8 teams with the "best" robot will qualify, instead of random teams which could very well be the worst team in Texas.

I fail to see how the wildcards (and disticts) lowers the level of teams competing at championships.

[akoscielski3]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

I think Canadian teams who attend Waterloo and GTR West are partying tonight.

I am now happy about attending Waterloo and GTR west!
But it doesn't matter cause My goal is still to beat 2056. and I would be happier if I won an event to make my way to champs. Rather than going because 2056 already has there slot. Don't get me wrong, I'll take that spot.

I don't know how else they would do it though? Maybe they could keep track of the teams Qualifying points, and the left over spots are given to those teams that have the highest QP's but didn't qualify for champs yet?

Either way, I believe the 2013 Championships will be the most competitive event ever. Maybe even bigger than IRI will be?

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Gregor

So lets say those same 8 teams went off to win 2-3 more regionals each, and maybe an EI or an RCA along the way. The spot that they took up goes to the waiting list (last year) which has no corolation at all to robot performance. Now when they qualify multiple times, their additional spot(s) goes to a team that is in the position they are from a high performing robot. In Texas, the next 8 teams with the "best" robot will qualify, instead of random teams which could very well be the worst team in Texas.

I fail to see how the wildcards (and disticts) lowers the level of teams competing at championships.

Gregor, you're comparing apples-to-oranges...

Specifically, I was talking about the upcoming Texas District Model... NOT this new "bridge" qualification that is for Regionals.

Originally Posted by Gregor

I fail to see how... (and disticts) lowers the level of teams competing at championships.

In Texas District Model, I think the competitiveness (on the field) of the _second_ batch of 8 teams (out of 16 qualified by points) will be lower than the teams they'll replace from other states that used to qualify for CHAMPIONSHIP as Alliance-WINNERS, and now also Alliance-FINALISTS (if slot[s] available)..."

Again, UNLESS Texas becomes like Michigan District with CRAZY competitive depth in their team pool...

[akoscielski3]

Note that only performance in the 2013 FRC season is considered in creating and awarding Wild Card slots. Championship status based on pre-qualification (Original and Sustaining Teams, Hall of Fame Teams, 2012 FIRST Championship Winners, etc.) has no bearing on this system.

I am a little confused by this. Does this mean that even though 1114 and 2056 are already going to world championships, that If/When 1114/2056 win at GTR East the Finalists don't get the wild card? Or will the finalists get the wild card still??

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by akoscielski3

I believe the 2013 Championships will be the most competitive event ever. Maybe even bigger than IRI will be?

I have to AGREE on 2013 CHAMPIONSHIP...

Though, IMO that will change over the years when the District Model rolls across-the-land as the dominant competition format... UNLESS your District is like Michigan.

As for IRI, I don't agree... since I see IRI as a Championship-of-the-CHAMPIONSHIP with 90%+ of the _INVITED_ teams competitive (on the field) enough to make CMP Division Elims (should ALL fall-into-place over 3 days)... and 60%+ competitive enough to make it to Einstein (should ALL fall-into-place over 3 days)...

[Mr. Lim]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

SURE...

Use Texas as an example... I'll say that after the Top 8 teams domiciled in Texas (some prominent Texas FIRSTers would argue "Top 6") you get a pretty steep drop in competitive (on the field) capabilities...

SO, being generous with my estimate, in the District Model, you'd have about 8 teams regularly qualifying for CHAMPIONSHIP that probably wouldn't qualify as often as Alliance-WINNERS in the Regional format.

District Model, IMO, broadens the eligibility for CHAMPIONSHIP to LESS competitive (on the field) teams...

Wow, this is a very different perspective!

I suppose it just goes to show how different the regions of FRC really are. I could throw out 16+ Championship calibre Ontario teams in a heartbeat:

1114, 2056, 188, 610, 3161, 907, 772, 1503, 2852, 1241, 781, 1310, 2200, 2809, 1334, 1075, 2702, 4001... I could go on, and I know I missed some.

I would love for all these teams to compete at World Championship on a regular basis. I genuinely think they'd be very competitive.

By qualifying only Alliance Winners, very few of these teams get a chance to go. Most are not quite good enough to win, but not bad enough to be a 2nd pick.

The district model is something I know a lot of us in Ontario are looking forward to. These Wild Cards are a great step forward, although I'm quite concerned about teams avoiding GTR-East now.

I do have a question though... Under the current qualification system in Texas, don't you feel that many of your current Top 8 (or 6) teams fail to qualify year after year?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by akoscielski3

I am a little confused by this. Does this mean that even though 1114 and 2056 are already going to world championships, that If/When 1114/2056 win at GTR East the Finalists don't get the wild card? Or will the finalists get the wild card still??

As I read it, for the wild card to be in play at all, any qualifiers in the winning alliance must have qualified for the 2013 Championship in the calendar year 2013 (this is what is effectively meant by excluding pre-qualifiers). So, if 1114 and 2056 and 4334 team up at GTR East and win the event, with 1 RCA and 1 EI, there will be no wild card unless one of the three has previously won an event or RCA or EI. But, if that same alliance shows up at GTR West, having won GTR East or another regional event, and wins there, then there are three wild cards in play, which can be picked up by the finalist alliance (all three members, then the backup if one of the three has already qualified and a backup is used).

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim

I do have a question though... Under the current qualification system in Texas, don't you feel that many of your current Top 8 (or 6) teams fail to qualify year after year?

I'm not sure WHAT you're driving at with "many" [failures]?!! I think your premise is wrong...

In Texas, over the last several years... 118 Robonauts, 148 Robowranglers, 624 CRyptonite, and 1477 Texas Torque have dominated as Regional Alliance-WINNERS at Regionals and gone to the CHAMPIONSHIP. SOMETIMES winning multiple Texas Regionals in the same season shutting-out access (via a WIN) to CMP for the 5th-8th best Texas teams... is THIS _any different_ in your Canadian territory?!

MY POINT, in talking specifically about Texas, was that we have a steep drop-off in really competitive (on field) teams after the Top 8... UNLIKE Canada, as you say... ;-)