Championships - Qualification Only Event?

[Craig Roys]

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence

The unfortunate part of this way of organizing champs is that teams who don't build the best of robots and don't have a solid Chairmans base may never attend champs.

I firmly believe every student in FRC should attend The Championship Event at least once in their FIRST career. It's something nobody would ever forget.

-Nick

Attend...sure; compete...???

To use a sports analogy, there are plenty of athletes who have played their entire career without ever having made it to the championship for whatever league/level they are in. What makes a championship so special is that it is extremely hard to achieve.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Craig Roys

Attend...sure; compete...???

To use a sports analogy, there are plenty of athletes who have played their entire career without ever having made it to the championship for whatever league/level they are in. What makes a championship so special is that it is extremely hard to achieve.

We are not football, track, softball or any other organized sport. We are in the business of inspiring students. I think this system will limit the number of student we can inspire. I truly believe that EVERY team should have the opportunity to compete at champs at least once every 4 years. Yes, that means the level of competition will be lower. Yes, there might be brave little toasters at champs. That's how I think it should be.

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

We are not football, track, softball or any other organized sport. We are in the business of inspiring students. I think this system will limit the number of student we can inspire. I truly believe that EVERY team should have the opportunity to compete at champs at least once every 4 years. Yes, that means the level of competition will be lower. Yes, there might be brave little toasters at champs. That's how I think it should be.

The first year 1625 didn't make it (2007) we went and watched anyway, and it was fantastic. I highly recommend attending champs without a team sometime, its very freeing and you can learn and see a lot more.

Arguably getting more inspirational sights than operating in tunnel vision mode of having to compete.

And you'll just see even more amazing things when the level of play isn't dilluted.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill

And you'll just see even more amazing things when the level of play isn't dilluted.

We will have to agree to disagree on that part. There is something about being on the field with high quality teams that changes a smaller team. If a team can be inspired by watching, they can do that through the webcast. It's far cheaper.

If it's about pure competition, remove the Chairman's and EIA from the field and have them just present. To me, it's not really about robot preformance.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

.... I truly believe that EVERY team should have the opportunity to compete at champs at least once every 4 years. Yes, that means the level of competition will be lower. Yes, there might be brave little toasters at champs. That's how I think it should be.

We're gonna need a bigger boat...

Assuming 2400-ish teams for 2013 (there will likely be more), this would require an event (at minimum) of 600 teams or about 50% more FRC teams than last year which was about 10% larger than the previous years. In order to get a reasonable number of matches, this would require 6 divisions. Not impossible, but this would require a drastically different event than what we currently have.

This is a noble goal, but with an ever growing league, I see the league running out of room somewhere in the very near future for even strategy like that. This would also require seperating Regional Performance from Championship attendance i.e. no repeats to the Championship. I.E. if you go one year, no matter how well you do, you will not be going back for another 4 years. Those "quality teams" will not be around again for a long time...
****************************************
I talked to a couple of teams that were not competing at the 2012 event, but decided to go. I think they had a good time, but would have preferred to be competing. I also talked to a team that was there due to a buy slot. I asked them what they liked about the championship.
#1. Getting to talk with students from other teams.
#2. Scholarship row.

Puzzled, I asked if they enjoyed competing there. The respoonse I got was:
Yes, but the first two were way more important.
*********************************
Almost every district event has a team that will eventually be at the championship. Michigan teams will have an opportunity to play with really solid teams.
If you want to play with the best, go to a Regional with the best. Hit up Waterloo, the Silicon Valley, Vegas, Midwest, BAE... You will see a better cross section of teams in a setting where you get more times to play with them than at an event like the championship.

[BrendanB]

FRC and the Championship are moving into a new phase due to growing pains which means buying into the Championship won't be an option in the upcoming years. Is that good? Not necessarily because attending the Championship is something everyone should experience.

I think it is more unfair if we rearrange how to qualify so it reduces the number of winners to keep the buy in option open for teams who haven't attended.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

We are not football, track, softball or any other organized sport. We are in the business of inspiring students. I think this system will limit the number of student we can inspire. I truly believe that EVERY team should have the opportunity to compete at champs at least once every 4 years. Yes, that means the level of competition will be lower. Yes, there might be brave little toasters at champs. That's how I think it should be.

FIRST is certainly being forced into this very unenviable balancing act. It is trying to satisfy the following requirements:

• Support a competition structure for 2400+ FRC teams
• Hold an end-of season event where all divisions of competition compete simutaneously
• because of the last point, they must cap FRC slots at 400
• Have already promised dozens of those spots as pre-qualifiers from the previous end-of-season event
• Must fulfill six-seven merit spots per regional, with six new regionals this year on top of MAR/MSC slots

FIRST preaches sustainability, and for the foreseeable future, allowing all teams a crack at CMP is mathematically unsustainable.

I have elaborated earlier that ten years ago, most teams had to go to CMP to learn from strong veteran teams. Now there are well-established veteran teams in every state that currently supports FRC. If we were to shift to the district system and keep buy-in slots, that means the sport is restricting even more hardworking teams because while they were actually good enough, they were not elite or mediocre. The message you would be sending teams who are not on say, 254 or 148 or 1114's level but still put in a ton of hours to deliver a solid product is not a positive or effective one.

I think the idea of everyone getting to enter a robot of championships is nice, but it is not going to become any less impossible for the time being, nor will it ever be considered a fair method of slot distribution. I can see a shift from the current competition structure to one that supports districts, district/state/super regional championships, "last chance/destination" double field traditional regionals, and CMP.

[Craig Roys]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

We are not football, track, softball or any other organized sport. We are in the business of inspiring students. I think this system will limit the number of student we can inspire. I truly believe that EVERY team should have the opportunity to compete at champs at least once every 4 years. Yes, that means the level of competition will be lower. Yes, there might be brave little toasters at champs. That's how I think it should be.

But we live in a competitive world...if you want to get that job, or that contract, or make it to Championships; you have to beat out everyone else who is trying to do the same thing. The "C" in FRC stands for competition. Part of that inspiration needs to be the understanding that nothing in this world is handed to you - you need to work to make it happen.

I believe that the majority of inspiration comes from the six weeks of hard work in creating a robot to meet the challenge of the new game, and in getting that robot to a competition and competing. I applaud EVERY team that manages to do that - it is a huge accomplishment.

However, now we have a situation that not every team can go to the FIRST Championship - even if we rotate to once every 4 years. There would still be teams shut out - there is no way to make sure that EVERY student gets to compete at the Championships at least once in their high school career. It sucks, but that's the way it is. So the fair way to determine who goes would be based on performance.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Craig Roys

The "C" in FRC stands for competition.

And the "R" stands for Robotics, but I guess I drank too much of the Kool-Aid and believe that FRC is not about the robot. Who was it that said (i'm going to butcher the quote),"If you go to an FRC event and think you are watching a robot competition, you are missing the point."?

I do not argue with the logistics of Champs. I understand the math. I also understand that I have never been to Champs. I kept my old team away due to funding issues. Now that I am with a much larger team that has seen more success at the regional level historically, I hear about what champs is like as an experience. I now realize I have done my old team a disservice by not buying into champs in the past. It's now THOSE teams that will most likely never get a chance to have ANY champs experience. If the small and resource poor teams never get a trip to St. Louis, or where ever it’s held next, then FIRST will have failed that portion of their community.

with that, I will not get off my soap box and finish grading these tests that are on my desk...

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

And the "R" stands for Robotics, but I guess I drank too much of the Kool-Aid and believe that FRC is not about the robot. Who was it that said (i'm going to butcher the quote),"If you go to an FRC event and think you are watching a robot competition, you are missing the point."?

I do not argue with the logistics of Champs. I understand the math. I also understand that I have never been to Champs. I kept my old team away due to funding issues. Now that I am with a much larger team that has seen more success at the regional level historically, I hear about what champs is like as an experience. I now realize I have done my old team a disservice by not buying into champs in the past. It's now THOSE teams that will most likely never get a chance to have ANY champs experience. If the small and resource poor teams never get a trip to St. Louis, or where ever it’s held next, then FIRST will have failed that portion of their community.

with that, I will not get off my soap box and finish grading these tests that are on my desk...

I don't think any of us are saying you are wrong. Every person in FIRST whether in jrFLL, FLL, FTC, or FRC should experience the Championship. I won't forget the first time I walked onto the dome floor!

But I don't agree with the portion that by not going to the world championship those students aren't inspired or that FIRST has failed them. The mission of FIRST is to inspire students which can be done at any level of competition. Whether in your shop enabling a student to create and build something or at your regional winning an award, inspiration comes at all levels!

[Craig Roys]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

And the "R" stands for Robotics, but I guess I drank too much of the Kool-Aid and believe that FRC is not about the robot. Who was it that said (i'm going to butcher the quote),"If you go to an FRC event and think you are watching a robot competition, you are missing the point."?

I do not argue with the logistics of Champs. I understand the math. I also understand that I have never been to Champs. I kept my old team away due to funding issues. Now that I am with a much larger team that has seen more success at the regional level historically, I hear about what champs is like as an experience. I now realize I have done my old team a disservice by not buying into champs in the past. It's now THOSE teams that will most likely never get a chance to have ANY champs experience. If the small and resource poor teams never get a trip to St. Louis, or where ever it’s held next, then FIRST will have failed that portion of their community.

with that, I will not get off my soap box and finish grading these tests that are on my desk...

Allow me to backtrack a little as I don't want to come off sounding like I don't care about the kids - in fact, the opposite is true; I wouldn't be a teacher or FIRST mentor if it wasn't. I don't disagree with you, but my argument comes from the way champs are set up now...as we all agree, the math doesn't work to get everyone there, at least to compete. As IKE said...we're gonna need a bigger boat. I don't know what the solution could be, but I'm sure regardless of what is done, someone will be unhappy...I say this because I'm not sure there is a perfect solution out there. I hope there is and that someone finds it.

[Kims Robot]

A few things crossed my mind in reading through the latest posts in this thread.

Yes every team should have the opportunity to attend championships... it is an amazing and awe inspiring event. It somehow gets bigger and crazier every year. But let me add a perspective... years ago, when I founded 1511, Rookie teams were not allowed to pre-register. I decided very early on with everything I had that I wanted my kids to see the Championships. So I scraped together funds, we did a ton of fundraising, I booked crazy cheap hotels, and we registered ourselves for 3 regionals. We would thus have 6 chances at getting a ticket to the big show - 3 RAS, and 3 Winners slots. By the end of the 3rd event our robot was beat to heck, but we had in our hands an RAS and a Regional Championship ticket... two tickets for one little rookie team!

If you are 100% committed to a goal, you can find ways to attain it. Go to multiple regionals, pick events that are "easier" to win, make your team a Chairmans or EI caliber team. These are all things that you have control over - IF YOU WANT IT BAD ENOUGH. I'm in 100% agreement that its in all of our best interests for each and every student in the program to see the amazing event that is championships. But the time has come that we can no longer hand out those golden tickets... we need to be like Charlie (who wanted a ticket to the chocolate factory) and find every possible way to get our OWN golden tickets.

As for some of the discussion on the numbers and how are we going to fit everyone in the future, I think this wild-card system is a good filler as FIRST builds towards its future plans. From what I know, with the potential of NE Districts coming online, there have been some discussions of FIRST's future plans. Slides 7 & 8 in the presentation on the NE FIRST website give an idea of what the future might look like.

I personally would hate to see FRC have to go the route of FTC where only the alliance captains get to go (all 3 teams often play such a crucial role in deciding the winning alliance), but if we keep up the growth and expansion, even more "widdling down" of the pack will have to happen.

But as with all changes, we will all find a way to manage. As many have said, find a way to rise up with the great teams, and we will make FRC stronger as a whole.

[stundt1]

My team is stuck in a predicament now. We try to attend champs every 4 years so everyone on the team gets a chance to attend champs. We aren't a powerhouse team or a consecutive chairman's team. Each year we attend 2 regionals a travel regional and FLR.

Next season we are hoping to go to champs through wait listing. We are unsure of our chances of getting in we believe it will be very slim this year. We cannot afford to attend 2 regionals this year on top of champs.

The problem with us going on the wait list is there is a risk involved that we might not get in and we lose the opportunity to go to a second regional. If we decide to go to a second regional instead of champs, then we wont be able to go to champs resulting in some unhappy students. A majority of students on our team are looking forward to attending champs.

So I was wondering if anyone knew how many teams on the wait list got accepted last year? It would be very helpful in our decision.

Anyone in the same predicament as us?

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by stundt1

My team is stuck in a predicament now. We try to attend champs every 4 years so everyone on the team gets a chance to attend champs. We aren't a powerhouse team or a consecutive chairman's team. Each year we attend 2 regionals a travel regional and FLR.

Next season we are hoping to go to champs through wait listing. We are unsure of our chances of getting in we believe it will be very slim this year. We cannot afford to attend 2 regionals this year on top of champs.

The problem with us going on the wait list is there is a risk involved that we might not get in and we lose the opportunity to go to a second regional. If we decide to go to a second regional instead of champs, then we wont be able to go to champs resulting in some unhappy students. A majority of students on our team are looking forward to attending champs.

So I was wondering if anyone knew how many teams on the wait list got accepted last year? It would be very helpful in our decision.

Anyone in the same predicament as us?

That would be a cool number to have!

It is hard to say. This year there is the introduction of the Wild Card system along with new regionals so the number of waitlisted teams getting into CMP is unknown and will be less than previous years.

I wouldn't hinge your entire season on the waitlist. In my opinion I would be more disappointed if my team only attended one regional instead of two because we didn't make the small window for waitlisted team.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by stundt1

My team is stuck in a predicament now. We try to attend champs every 4 years so everyone on the team gets a chance to attend champs. ...snip
...
So I was wondering if anyone knew how many teams on the wait list got accepted last year? It would be very helpful in our decision.

Anyone in the same predicament as us?

I would recommend proposing 2 options to the team:

Option 1: Attend a 2nd regional and understand the likelihood of attending the World championship is low. Present what the budget is and talk about what kind of "emergency fund-raising" would be required should you get a waitlist spot (Mathematically speaking, I do not think there are a lot of these spots left in the future of FRC).

Option 2: Plan on attending the World Championship whether or not you qualify. If you qualify or get a wiat-list slot, you are ready to go. If you don't qualify, attend anyway and make sure students take advantage of scholarship row, seminars, and ... If you have a strong scouting team, or a students interested in improving scouting, have them join in on some of the other teams there to see how their systems work. Recommend that the students or mentors volunteer at the event to see the other side of how FRC is done...

Like Alan said, I would probably recommend our team attends even if we do not qualify.