Championships - Qualification Only Event?

[Craig Roys]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

We are not football, track, softball or any other organized sport. We are in the business of inspiring students. I think this system will limit the number of student we can inspire. I truly believe that EVERY team should have the opportunity to compete at champs at least once every 4 years. Yes, that means the level of competition will be lower. Yes, there might be brave little toasters at champs. That's how I think it should be.

But we live in a competitive world...if you want to get that job, or that contract, or make it to Championships; you have to beat out everyone else who is trying to do the same thing. The "C" in FRC stands for competition. Part of that inspiration needs to be the understanding that nothing in this world is handed to you - you need to work to make it happen.

I believe that the majority of inspiration comes from the six weeks of hard work in creating a robot to meet the challenge of the new game, and in getting that robot to a competition and competing. I applaud EVERY team that manages to do that - it is a huge accomplishment.

However, now we have a situation that not every team can go to the FIRST Championship - even if we rotate to once every 4 years. There would still be teams shut out - there is no way to make sure that EVERY student gets to compete at the Championships at least once in their high school career. It sucks, but that's the way it is. So the fair way to determine who goes would be based on performance.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Craig Roys

The "C" in FRC stands for competition.

And the "R" stands for Robotics, but I guess I drank too much of the Kool-Aid and believe that FRC is not about the robot. Who was it that said (i'm going to butcher the quote),"If you go to an FRC event and think you are watching a robot competition, you are missing the point."?

I do not argue with the logistics of Champs. I understand the math. I also understand that I have never been to Champs. I kept my old team away due to funding issues. Now that I am with a much larger team that has seen more success at the regional level historically, I hear about what champs is like as an experience. I now realize I have done my old team a disservice by not buying into champs in the past. It's now THOSE teams that will most likely never get a chance to have ANY champs experience. If the small and resource poor teams never get a trip to St. Louis, or where ever it’s held next, then FIRST will have failed that portion of their community.

with that, I will not get off my soap box and finish grading these tests that are on my desk...

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

And the "R" stands for Robotics, but I guess I drank too much of the Kool-Aid and believe that FRC is not about the robot. Who was it that said (i'm going to butcher the quote),"If you go to an FRC event and think you are watching a robot competition, you are missing the point."?

I do not argue with the logistics of Champs. I understand the math. I also understand that I have never been to Champs. I kept my old team away due to funding issues. Now that I am with a much larger team that has seen more success at the regional level historically, I hear about what champs is like as an experience. I now realize I have done my old team a disservice by not buying into champs in the past. It's now THOSE teams that will most likely never get a chance to have ANY champs experience. If the small and resource poor teams never get a trip to St. Louis, or where ever it’s held next, then FIRST will have failed that portion of their community.

with that, I will not get off my soap box and finish grading these tests that are on my desk...

I don't think any of us are saying you are wrong. Every person in FIRST whether in jrFLL, FLL, FTC, or FRC should experience the Championship. I won't forget the first time I walked onto the dome floor!

But I don't agree with the portion that by not going to the world championship those students aren't inspired or that FIRST has failed them. The mission of FIRST is to inspire students which can be done at any level of competition. Whether in your shop enabling a student to create and build something or at your regional winning an award, inspiration comes at all levels!

[Craig Roys]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

And the "R" stands for Robotics, but I guess I drank too much of the Kool-Aid and believe that FRC is not about the robot. Who was it that said (i'm going to butcher the quote),"If you go to an FRC event and think you are watching a robot competition, you are missing the point."?

I do not argue with the logistics of Champs. I understand the math. I also understand that I have never been to Champs. I kept my old team away due to funding issues. Now that I am with a much larger team that has seen more success at the regional level historically, I hear about what champs is like as an experience. I now realize I have done my old team a disservice by not buying into champs in the past. It's now THOSE teams that will most likely never get a chance to have ANY champs experience. If the small and resource poor teams never get a trip to St. Louis, or where ever it’s held next, then FIRST will have failed that portion of their community.

with that, I will not get off my soap box and finish grading these tests that are on my desk...

Allow me to backtrack a little as I don't want to come off sounding like I don't care about the kids - in fact, the opposite is true; I wouldn't be a teacher or FIRST mentor if it wasn't. I don't disagree with you, but my argument comes from the way champs are set up now...as we all agree, the math doesn't work to get everyone there, at least to compete. As IKE said...we're gonna need a bigger boat. I don't know what the solution could be, but I'm sure regardless of what is done, someone will be unhappy...I say this because I'm not sure there is a perfect solution out there. I hope there is and that someone finds it.

[Kims Robot]

A few things crossed my mind in reading through the latest posts in this thread.

Yes every team should have the opportunity to attend championships... it is an amazing and awe inspiring event. It somehow gets bigger and crazier every year. But let me add a perspective... years ago, when I founded 1511, Rookie teams were not allowed to pre-register. I decided very early on with everything I had that I wanted my kids to see the Championships. So I scraped together funds, we did a ton of fundraising, I booked crazy cheap hotels, and we registered ourselves for 3 regionals. We would thus have 6 chances at getting a ticket to the big show - 3 RAS, and 3 Winners slots. By the end of the 3rd event our robot was beat to heck, but we had in our hands an RAS and a Regional Championship ticket... two tickets for one little rookie team!

If you are 100% committed to a goal, you can find ways to attain it. Go to multiple regionals, pick events that are "easier" to win, make your team a Chairmans or EI caliber team. These are all things that you have control over - IF YOU WANT IT BAD ENOUGH. I'm in 100% agreement that its in all of our best interests for each and every student in the program to see the amazing event that is championships. But the time has come that we can no longer hand out those golden tickets... we need to be like Charlie (who wanted a ticket to the chocolate factory) and find every possible way to get our OWN golden tickets.

As for some of the discussion on the numbers and how are we going to fit everyone in the future, I think this wild-card system is a good filler as FIRST builds towards its future plans. From what I know, with the potential of NE Districts coming online, there have been some discussions of FIRST's future plans. Slides 7 & 8 in the presentation on the NE FIRST website give an idea of what the future might look like.

I personally would hate to see FRC have to go the route of FTC where only the alliance captains get to go (all 3 teams often play such a crucial role in deciding the winning alliance), but if we keep up the growth and expansion, even more "widdling down" of the pack will have to happen.

But as with all changes, we will all find a way to manage. As many have said, find a way to rise up with the great teams, and we will make FRC stronger as a whole.

[stundt1]

My team is stuck in a predicament now. We try to attend champs every 4 years so everyone on the team gets a chance to attend champs. We aren't a powerhouse team or a consecutive chairman's team. Each year we attend 2 regionals a travel regional and FLR.

Next season we are hoping to go to champs through wait listing. We are unsure of our chances of getting in we believe it will be very slim this year. We cannot afford to attend 2 regionals this year on top of champs.

The problem with us going on the wait list is there is a risk involved that we might not get in and we lose the opportunity to go to a second regional. If we decide to go to a second regional instead of champs, then we wont be able to go to champs resulting in some unhappy students. A majority of students on our team are looking forward to attending champs.

So I was wondering if anyone knew how many teams on the wait list got accepted last year? It would be very helpful in our decision.

Anyone in the same predicament as us?

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by stundt1

My team is stuck in a predicament now. We try to attend champs every 4 years so everyone on the team gets a chance to attend champs. We aren't a powerhouse team or a consecutive chairman's team. Each year we attend 2 regionals a travel regional and FLR.

Next season we are hoping to go to champs through wait listing. We are unsure of our chances of getting in we believe it will be very slim this year. We cannot afford to attend 2 regionals this year on top of champs.

The problem with us going on the wait list is there is a risk involved that we might not get in and we lose the opportunity to go to a second regional. If we decide to go to a second regional instead of champs, then we wont be able to go to champs resulting in some unhappy students. A majority of students on our team are looking forward to attending champs.

So I was wondering if anyone knew how many teams on the wait list got accepted last year? It would be very helpful in our decision.

Anyone in the same predicament as us?

That would be a cool number to have!

It is hard to say. This year there is the introduction of the Wild Card system along with new regionals so the number of waitlisted teams getting into CMP is unknown and will be less than previous years.

I wouldn't hinge your entire season on the waitlist. In my opinion I would be more disappointed if my team only attended one regional instead of two because we didn't make the small window for waitlisted team.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by stundt1

My team is stuck in a predicament now. We try to attend champs every 4 years so everyone on the team gets a chance to attend champs. ...snip
...
So I was wondering if anyone knew how many teams on the wait list got accepted last year? It would be very helpful in our decision.

Anyone in the same predicament as us?

I would recommend proposing 2 options to the team:

Option 1: Attend a 2nd regional and understand the likelihood of attending the World championship is low. Present what the budget is and talk about what kind of "emergency fund-raising" would be required should you get a waitlist spot (Mathematically speaking, I do not think there are a lot of these spots left in the future of FRC).

Option 2: Plan on attending the World Championship whether or not you qualify. If you qualify or get a wiat-list slot, you are ready to go. If you don't qualify, attend anyway and make sure students take advantage of scholarship row, seminars, and ... If you have a strong scouting team, or a students interested in improving scouting, have them join in on some of the other teams there to see how their systems work. Recommend that the students or mentors volunteer at the event to see the other side of how FRC is done...

Like Alan said, I would probably recommend our team attends even if we do not qualify.

[Koko Ed]

If I was running my team I would rather go to two events and earn the right to go to the championships and also involve them in off season events than do one event and go the the championships.
I think getting the most out of the machine you built through higher performance by participating in multiple events is the way to go.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

If the small and resource poor teams never get a trip to St. Louis, or where ever it’s held next, then FIRST will have failed that portion of their community.

Can I ask (and others have said this as well) why is the inherently true? I'm not saying it isn't...but why? Is it the dome? The VIPs? The shear number of teams? The presence of the other leagues? The added events (finale, Scholarship Row, etc)? The additional international teams?

I ask because on some level maybe what we need to do is recreate rather than expand that inspirational opportunity. For instance this year, a few rookie students were very clear that the Mid-Atlantic Championship was much more inspirational to them than Worlds. Now of course, it was earlier, we did better there, etc, etc. But I've heard similar comments about MSC as well. They're not Einstein, but they are most definitely inspirational. Why is never getting to go to Worlds, specifically, a failure of FIRST to those teams?

[Gregor]

I don't remember getting the memo that attending championship is a right.

[Alan Anderson]

If the TechnoKats ever lose their prequalified status as one of the original and sustaining teams, I'm going to suggest that we plan to attend the Championship Event anyway regardless of whether we qualify. It would be a lot less stressful, and very likely just as much fun, to show up just to browse the pits and scholarship booths, and to watch some of the best teams in the world compete. As a bonus, we'd have time to go to some of the presentations that we've never been able to see.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Gregor

I don't remember getting the memo that attending championship is a right.

Going to Champs in not a right; It is a great privilege. One that seems to be for those who are privileged enough to live in more densely populated or affluant areas where there are resources (money and mentor assistance) to support a FIRST team at that level. I'm not saying that all teams that go to champs are lucky enough to be in this category, but I would bet to guess most are. I think that this new system will widen the gap between the "haves" and "have-nots." We need a system that will allow the chance to go to champs at some point regardless of their geographic/demographic situation.


Regarding "going to champs just to go even if we didn't qualify": That would be a wonderful option. However, I wonder what my school administrator would say if I asked for a field trip to go across the country to attend a competition we weren't competing in. That would be a rather interesting conversation to say the least.

Sadly, just like the "real world," the playing field for teams is never level for all teams. It was my belief that the waitlist for champs was a sort of equalizer for teams. Now that it has been removed, you will see a less diverse crowd on the field at Champs in the future.

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

Regarding "going to champs just to go even if we didn't qualify": That would be a wonderful option. However, I wonder what my school administrator would say if I asked for a field trip to go across the country to attend a competition we weren't competing in. That would be a rather interesting conversation to say the least.

There are plenty of times this happens already outside of FIRST. How many Spanish classes fly to Spain for a summer trip? How many orchestras attend trips to Carnegie Hall (I'll give you a hint, I was just up in RURAL Maine, and they had posters signed by students for their annual trip)? How many science classes take a trip to the Boston Science Museum?

But how many non-winning high school soccer teams do you see competing at the state championships? How many softball teams get to compete internationally that couldn't win at their regional level?

You can either look at FIRST as a competition - like a sport - where you believe the best of the best compete for the Championships, or you can look at it as an opportunity taken by all other classes/clubs/activities... and go for the experience. The podunk school orchestra doesnt have to play there to appreciate visiting Carnegie Hall. The science classes don't have to have a science fair to show off their work to appreciate going to the Science Museum.

FIRST can simultaneously cover both worlds. It can offer an amazing competition for the robots where the best of the best compete... while allowing the rest to come, enjoy the show, take advantage of the multitude of different offerings (conferences, scholarship row, Hall of Fame, etc!). But it also allows us to sit at home and pout if we want to...