Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?

[invertedBottles]

Originally Posted by squirrel

Your list includes a lot of stuff that is nice to have but definitely not necessary.

Having several work tables, at least two with a vise attached, is a good idea, if you have room for them. Also make sure you have room to play with (test drive) the robot, without having to go too far from your workshop.

I think if you present a relatively modest list the odds are better that someone will step up and help you. If you come right out asking for $100k of equipment, you might not get too far.

After a drill press and a vertical band saw, I'd be looking for a lathe.

The list is specifically for one confirmed sponsor (since I do not know their price range), and then will act as our team's general tool wishlist. If another sponsor comes up saying they have $X to help us purchase a tool, I will definitely only ask for items within their range.

Last season, we had the long hallway right outside our room as our test space.

In terms of priorities, this is what I have generalized from the above posts, if anyone has any comments on priorities or specific model suggestions, please do not hesitate to comment. Anything with a 1 is a definite purchase, especially if it is one of the lower priced tools.

1) many more drills (at least one right-angle w/ carbide bits)
1) more hammers
1) more wrenches (allens with handles, ratcheting, sockets)
1) any tools that will help in getting accurate measurements (what else besides calipers?)
1) many vises, mounted on sturdy work tables
2) drill press
2.1) arbor press (a reasonably priced one)
3) chop saw (miter saw + table saw functions)
3) band saw (horizontal or vertical?)
3) miter saw (maybe compound?)
3) table saw
4) bench grinder
4) disc/belt sander
5) lathe
5.1) mill
5.2) combo setups of any of the above
6) reciprocating saw
7) welding equipment? (only if we have members learn)

I've heard of cold saw, but I don't know if that is a different saw type or just a different type of blade.

Someone suggested an 82 tooth carbide blade for cutting Aluminum up to 4in, what tool is this on?

To Eric, we do have a large selection of various sized center punches, we just have to train members how to correctly utilize them. Last year, we had people banging on them like they were nails, causing the punches to hop around and leaving inaccurate imprints. I'll also have to bring the 3D printer up with our mentors, seems like a great idea. The storage also brings up another question, we really are unsure how to pack things for competition. Should we buy/build storage planning to transport/ship them to competitions? Or have a separate set of competition hand tools?

Sarah, we will always have to keep security in mind. No one can afford to have anything walking off. It's a welcome reminder no one can hear too much of.

Akash, I'll keep Craigslist, the local paper, Tool Barn, and Harbor Freight all in mind. Your comments on drill bits actually brings up another question. Should we be going for solid carbide or just carbide tipped? And I've heard something about a stepped bit, is that what we need for drilling aluminum? Any other drill bit types we might want in handy? We also worked with wood and plastic this year, and all this work was done on one set of bits.

Thanks for the help so far guys!

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by invertedBottles

(at least one right-angle w/ carbide bits)

This isn't necessary at all, I was just stating one of my favorite power tools.

As for carbide bits - we really only keep 1 or 2 around, and those were for cleanly drilling through rivets quickly. They aren't necessary either.

Recommended item - set of hole saws.

[invertedBottles]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

This isn't necessary at all, I was just stating one of my favorite power tools.

As for carbide bits - we really only keep 1 or 2 around, and those were for cleanly drilling through rivets quickly. They aren't necessary either.

Recommended item - set of hole saws.

When you suggested the right-angle drill, it was a "that would've been helpful" moment. I can't tell you how many times I was personally looking to drill a hole only to find out our drill didn't fit in the space.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hole saws are to cut bigger holes? What material would you suggest if we mainly work on aluminum?

[Gray Adams]

Originally Posted by invertedBottles

1) many more drills (at least one right-angle w/ carbide bits)
1) more hammers
1) more wrenches (allens with handles, ratcheting, sockets)
1) any tools that will help in getting accurate measurements (what else besides calipers?)
1) many vises, mounted on sturdy work tables
2) drill press
2.1) arbor press (a reasonably priced one)
3) chop saw (miter saw + table saw functions)
3) band saw (horizontal or vertical?)
3) miter saw (maybe compound?)
3) table saw
4) bench grinder
4) disc/belt sander
5) lathe
5.1) mill
5.2) combo setups of any of the above
6) reciprocating saw
7) welding equipment? (only if we have members learn)

For drills, Makitas are the best I've used, and they will put up with some serious abuse. Dewalts are good too.
For wrenches, now is a great time to think about what style of fastener you like. I love SHCS, so I would buy based on that. You probably won't need a whole lot of torx keys or allen keys if you like hex head bolts though.

Calipers, tape measures, and rulers are all I can think of that you would need. (for now). Micrometers and all that good stuff is well beyond what most teams will ever need.

As far as big tools go, I would say forget about the chop saw, miter saw, table saw, bench grinder, welding equipment, or any combo mill-lathe type tools for now. A band saw will take you pretty far, and the other tools are nice to have, but definitely not essential. A lathe is pretty good to have. If you can, I would spring for an old bridgeport instead of a drill press. Cost is probably pretty prohibitive though.

EDIT: I should probably make it clear that I've never heard anything good about combo mill/lathe machines and I absolutely wouldn't buy one.

Other important stuff in no particular order:
A decent sized tool box that you can take to competition (small enough for 2 people to carry)
Collapsible shelving units for your pit
Irwin quick clamps
A big box of fasteners
Complete set of drill bits
Rivets and rivet gun
Electrical tools (whatever those are...)
Air compressor

It sounds like you're well on your way to having a better equipped shop than anything at my university.

[invertedBottles]

After asking around, I believe we have the sponsor I have mentioned above, as well as a $2000 grant from our school's PTSA for tools. After subtracting the 2013 registration fee and our rainy day fund from last year's surplus, I believe we have around $5k-$7.5k to spend on tools.

edit:

Originally Posted by MrBasse

I'm not trying to sound too much like an adult here, but has any of this been cleared with the school's administration or custodial departments? Just on my teaching experience alone I can tell you that it isn't a good idea to surprise either group. If you make one or the other angry you might end up finding a new Place to work whether you want to or not.

Space is another concern with big machines, I don't know what physics labs look like where you are, but from the ones at my school I can tell you that one Bridgeport with safety clearance will use up the full lab area. Also, does the teacher still have to teach in this room? In moSt states,there are regulations on what can be in a particular room based on the certified staff present. If you don't have a certified teache in industrial technology present a lot of school's won't have the insurance to cover potential injuries.

I'm not trying to shut you down on any big plans, but it always a shame to get everything put together and organized and then have to take it all down. I was offered a rediculous Haas CNC mill the other day on donation and had to turn it down because we don't have the floorspace and the maintenance department won't let us run electrical to where we do have space. Sometime things don't work out, and it is definately better to know ahead of time when they won't.

That is an excellent reminder, I know our teacher has brought it up with the administration, but all the other points will have to be confirmed. The administration is really flexible and supportive, they have really worked with us so far, so hopefully there isn't much other problems.

I love all the other suggestions, I will have to research specific brands of tools and models. If anyone has a specific model that their team is using and it works great, PLEASE let me know. That is probably the biggest problem I have at the moment, finding a specific product that we know will do what we want/need, and last us at least a few seasons.

Edit x2:

Originally Posted by EricH

A good solid chop saw can probably do most of the functions of a miter saw and table saw (and to some extent a horizontal bandsaw); if you get one where the blade can slide in and out with respect to the pivot point, you get some limited table saw ability as well.

After more research, I have something to clarify. Am I wrong in saying a chop saw is a saw that cuts in a vertical plane, while a mitre saw is a type/variation of chop saw that allows you to also get angles on the cut? This is probably going to be one of the tools we need more urgently, because last year we handled all cuts (wood, metal, plastic) using either a circular saw, jig saw, or hack saws. I've been looking at a Makita LS1216L with goes for $600, which is also available with a stand. It is a sliding dual beveled compound model. Anyone have experience with this, or possibly a cheaper brand/model? I've yet to check local classified to see if there are any good deals around.

Revised Listing (all none tool suggestions have been taken down, most are generic and will be bought regardless):
1) many more drills (at least one right-angle w/ carbide bits, Makitas + DeWalts)
1) more hammers
1) more wrenches (allens with handles, ratcheting, sockets)
1) any tools that will help in getting accurate measurements (what else besides calipers?)
1) many vises, mounted on sturdy work tables (at least 6" expansion and 4" jaws)
1) more clamps (6 Quick Clamps 12", 4 Bar Clamps 18" opening)
1) dremel
2) drill press ($350 - 500, maybe spring for a Bridgeport mill, but a 2-axis vise can offer same capability)
2) miter saw (compound, sliding, single/dual beveled)
2.1) arbor press (a reasonably priced one)
3) band saw (horizontal or vertical? - Stout Pro 200)
3) bench grinder
3) disc/belt sander ($100-200)
4) lathe
4) mill (Bridgeport)
4.1) combo machine (lathe/mill/drill press - have not heard good things though)
5) reciprocating saw
6) welding equipment? (only if we have members learn)

We have contacted our local CC as well as a local technical high school. With City College of San Francisco, we actually went to a meeting of their robotics club in their workshop once, but as far as I know, they could not/did not offer their tools or services to us. The technical high school did not want to join forces with us, and were not willing to give us access to their machine shop either.

Originally Posted by Nemo

A low cost metal bending brake plus an inexpensive shear would be worth considering if you have a table to mount them on. Bent sheet parts are useful in lots of places. You can get both at Harbor Freight for a combined $200.

It does seem plenty useful. Are there manual and electric types of it? What does the shear do?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by invertedBottles

After more research, I have something to clarify. Am I wrong in saying a chop saw is a saw that cuts in a vertical plane, while a mitre saw is a type/variation of chop saw that allows you to also get angles on the cut? This is probably going to be one of the tools we need more urgently, because last year we handled all cuts (wood, metal, plastic) using either a circular saw, jig saw, or hack saws. I've been looking at a Makita LS1216L with goes for $600, which is also available with a stand. It is a sliding dual beveled compound model. Anyone have experience with this, or possibly a cheaper brand/model? I've yet to check local classified to see if there are any good deals around.

You're right. Most chop saws these days are miter saws as well. Matter of fact, the one you linked appears to be the general type that I was thinking of; I have experience with a DeWalt one (I think it was a DeWalt--it was yellow!). If you use them right, they can do a pretty good job of pretending to be a table saw. Make sure to get multiple blades--wood, aluminum, and steel cut differently--and some clamps/holders.

For the bandsaw question, a sliding miter saw will also do a pretty good job of imitating a horizontal bandsaw, at least on smaller and thinner parts. Start with a vertical bandsaw, probably a benchtop model or a smaller floor model.

The other thing that I keep forgetting: If you get a tool that you don't know how to use, before you use it, find someone who does (like the CC) to come in and show you. Saves time, saves frustration, probably saves eyes and fingers.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by invertedBottles

It does seem plenty useful. Are there manual and electric types of it? What does the shear do?

Bending brakes are manual. I imagine that powered ones exist, but it's really easy to bend thin stuff by hand.

Shear = cut. Search for "throatless shear" on Harbor Freight to see what we just bought. It seems to work nicely for small stuff.

[kellymc]

Revised Listing (all none tool suggestions have been taken down, most are generic and will be bought regardless):
1) many more drills (at least one right-angle w/ carbide bits, Makitas + DeWalts) - The makita drill/impact driver combo set is a nice set of tools
1) more hammers - specify types, ball peen, mallets????
1) more wrenches (allens with handles, ratcheting, sockets) - do you want metric or standard? Also, instead of buying a full set of wrenches, determine what size fasteners you are using and buy 5-10 wrenches separately in that size so you have a good supply - then buy 1 complete set of wrenches for when you come across that odd fastener.
1) any tools that will help in getting accurate measurements (what else besides calipers?) - Check out harbor freight, their electronic calipers go on sale for $9.99 often, there's a store in Newark and one in Santa Clara
1) many vises, mounted on sturdy work tables (at least 6" expansion and 4" jaws) - buy a good vise if you can afford it like a wilton - Alan steel in Redwood City has some nice Jet vises that are made in taiwan for good prices - stay away from the cheap vises at home depot/etc...
1) more clamps (6 Quick Clamps 12", 4 Bar Clamps 18" opening) - harbor freight - on sale often - you will also want some C-clamps as well
1) dremel - the definition of a dremel:" a tool that converts electricity to vibration" - do yourself a favor and buy a proxon instead, close to the same price and uses the same tools but is much higher quality and will last much longer.
2) drill press ($350 - 500, maybe spring for a Bridgeport mill, but a 2-axis vise can offer same capability) - Couple of options here, if you have the space go for a bridgeport, there's a business closing in redwood city that is selling a couple of mills on Thur/Friday this week (search craigslist for Mill and you will see the ad) keep in mind most of these machines require 3-phase power or an adapter, also the size etc.... you might be better off with a table top machine. For this there are a couple of options, one is a TAIG mill (around $1,000) that can easily be converted latter to CNC for another $1,000. Another good choice is the B20 mill from Grizzly, also convertible to CNC but more around $4K for this option - also factor about $2K for tooling in addition to the mill price
2) miter saw (compound, sliding, single/dual beveled) - search craigslist - you likely don't need a sliding saw so look for a good used one and buy a new carbide tipped blade
2.1) arbor press (a reasonably priced one) - don't bother, purchase a 20ton press from harbor freight - currently on sale
3) band saw (horizontal or vertical? - Stout Pro 200) - make sure the saw you buy is a metal cutting saw, if it's for wood, then you will need to add a gearbox to slow down the blade the to the right speeds. I wouldn't spend the money on the stout - if anything get a milwaukee portaband bandsaw and a table mount from swag offroad.
3) bench grinder - buy the disc/belt sander below first -
3) disc/belt sander ($100-200) - search c-list for a used machine with a 1/2 to 3/4 hp motor, also that sale I mentioned above in RWC has a couple listed -
4) lathe - We have a lathe we purchased from littlemachine shop, it's a nice table top unit that we mounted to a rolling cart, so far we have been able to make everything we need on this machine -
4) mill (Bridgeport) - see above
4.1) combo machine (lathe/mill/drill press - have not heard good things though) - agreed, these machines are a compromise
5) reciprocating saw -
6) welding equipment? (only if we have members learn) Our team has a 110 welder that we weld our aluminum frame with. I wouldn't recommend this as a way to go, if you can go TIG, however, I would push for alternative construction methods such as riveting, sheet metal construction if I were starting from scratch.

Lastly, to store all of these tools, you should get a rolling tool cabinet, again, I would recommend the 44" cabinet from Harbor freight

http://www.harborfreight.com/44-13-d...net-68784.html

you can find coupons on line for $349.00 for this cabinet to save even more money.

If you have any other questions or want some additional information send me a PM and we can talk, if you want to come see our tooling, we meet on Wed/Fridays and Saturdays getting ready for cal games.

Kelly
Mentor 766 MA Bears

[invertedBottles]

Originally Posted by kellymc

LOTS OF INFO TAKEN OUT

If you have any other questions or want some additional information send me a PM and we can talk, if you want to come see our tooling, we meet on Wed/Fridays and Saturdays getting ready for cal games.

Kelly
Mentor 766 MA Bears[/color]

That's a generous offer that I'd love to take you up on, but we probably won't be able to make it out anytime soon. We are also going to be at CalGames, we'll see you there. I love all the info, if I have any other questions I know who to ask for an answer! One things, regarding cutting tools, is there any one of the tools we could purchase that could perform essentially the same as other tools? Like EricH said on the previous page, a sliding miter saw can perform some of the bandsaw functions? It would not only save us space but time having to train members on only one tool vs two.

With any new tools, we will get experienced mentors or ask other teams to come out and teach us, or at least myself. It is my responsibility to see that all the tools are properly operated, so I will be willing to pass on the training. Having another student lose their fingers would be worse for me then losing one of my own!

The only problem we have with Craigslist and classifieds is the ads go up quickly, and require items to be picked up, sometimes quite far away. With out limited number of mentors, we can't really go anywhere on short notice. Plus, it's easier to point at a new product for a sponsor to purchas. We do not know if they are willing to provide direct funding yet.

Jackson and rondinol, good info. Will be kept in mind!

Originally Posted by Cory

You really don't need a sliding miter saw. We have this. $200 and it works great. High quality. Throw a nice carbide tipped blade on there and you can easily cut aluminum tube (absolutely do NOT cut solid/ferrous metal with any miter saw).

Thanks Cory, you have some really informational points! I've been reading that Makitas have the most accurate cuts in miter saws, but it seems you do think the Rigid works great. When cutting with the miter, what kind of clamps or other tools do you use to hold the material down? Do you have it on a dedicated stand, or some kind of table/bench/counter?

[Akash Rastogi]

According to google maps, San Francisco State University is very close to your high school, as is the City College of San Francisco. Those two will probably end up being two of the best resources you could possible establish in terms of machining capabilities and mentoring. Both are within two miles of Lowell HS.

Be sure to check both out very soon.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by invertedBottles

That's a generous offer that I'd love to take you up on, but we probably won't be able to make it out anytime soon. We are also going to be at CalGames, we'll see you there. I love all the info, if I have any other questions I know who to ask for an answer! One things, regarding cutting tools, is there any one of the tools we could purchase that could perform essentially the same as other tools? Like EricH said on the previous page, a sliding miter saw can perform some of the bandsaw functions? It would not only save us space but time having to train members on only one tool vs two.

With any new tools, we will get experienced mentors or ask other teams to come out and teach us, or at least myself. It is my responsibility to see that all the tools are properly operated, so I will be willing to pass on the training. Having another student lose their fingers would be worse for me then losing one of my own!

The only problem we have with Craigslist and classifieds is the ads go up quickly, and require items to be picked up, sometimes quite far away. With out limited number of mentors, we can't really go anywhere on short notice. Plus, it's easier to point at a new product for a sponsor to purchas. We do not know if they are willing to provide direct funding yet.

Jackson and rondinol, good info. Will be kept in mind!



Thanks Cory, you have some really informational points! I've been reading that Makitas have the most accurate cuts in miter saws, but it seems you do think the Rigid works great. When cutting with the miter, what kind of clamps or other tools do you use to hold the material down? Do you have it on a dedicated stand, or some kind of table/bench/counter?

I have no experience with Makita saws, so I cannot recommend it over a Makita, but our experience with Ridgid products in general has been very good.

In principle I am against paying $600 for a sliding compound miter saw. It's just not that much more useful than a regular miter saw, for FRC purposes. If you were framing up a house every day of the year and required the versatility and the durability of a professional grade tool it would be the right choice...but that isn't what we're doing in FRC.

I don't really see one as a replacement for a bandsaw or table saw. You can cut a 15"x15" square with a 12" sliding miter saw. I guess that's better than if it wasn't sliding, but it's nowhere near a real table saw and I'm not sure in what way it would be equivalent to a vertical bandsaw, as they are primarily used for contouring.

You should be able to find a fairly decent vertical bandsaw for a couple hundred dollars. With good blades and proper care it should cut aluminum up to 1/4" thick with no problem (inevitably people will cut steel with it, or shove aluminum through at about a zillion miles an hour and ruin your brand new blades though).


We use the clamp that came with the saw. We have a beat up folding table that we will often bolt the saw to and then wood screw down a stop to ensure repeatable length cuts for tubing that gets welded without being further processed on the mill. Otherwise we just use it on the ground.