Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?

[MrForbes]

There's a pretty nice 3d printer in our school's Engineering classroom...we've had Engineering students on the robot team for a few years...and we have yet to figure out a robot part that we could print with it. I would look at other things to spend money on.

It sounds like you need put in some "shop class" time before you get too far along buying tools. Knowing how to use them is vital.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by George C

A great off-season activity is to build your own. http://www.reprap.org/wiki/RepRap We're in the process of building our 2nd. It costs about $600 to build one from scratch using linear bearings. The one we have draws a crowd at events. Once you have one, you can use it to print parts for more.

Might be a bit more than that--I was trying to come up with a number for how much a Mendel Basic (which is a RepRap printer) would cost if the plastic parts are already built, and came up with about $1K for everything. Admittedly, I didn't shop around much--the site I linked before, if you click on the "Store" tab, has almost all of the kit parts/electronics. The cost comes down if you find more local/cheaper sources. (The other thing about that site: The customer service is outstanding.) They ship a full-up printer, verified to work and fully assembled, for about $2000, so if a sponsor is funding it, it isn't a whole big chunk of budget.


The storage thing is something that you'll have to decide, but what I would do is be able to bring as much of the stuff as you can. That means portable toolboxes, rolling or not, that you can take out of the shop and stick in a vehicle. One set of tools probably isn't going to be enough at the competition. Bring 3. That's also where the KOP bins come in; they stack nicely under a table. When I was on a college engineering competition team, about the only thing from the shop we didn't take to competition was the workbench--we brought folding tables in the trailer instead. Figured if we didn't need it, someone else did.

Gray, I think you've got it reversed. I know of teams who've gone years with a miter/chop combo saw and no vertical bandsaw--about the only thing it can't do is turning cuts. That's why I put a Dremel (OP, take note--I'd put that at a 1 and it's fairly cheap) on the list, as it's a highly versatile tool that can help with making turning cuts. The Bridgeport instead of a drill press--Sorry, but a used Bridgeport can run in the $2500-$5000 range and that's without tooling. A 2-axis vice for a drill press can give some mill functionality; you just have to go slower when cutting a slot. And like I said, without knowing how much space they've got available, I'm willing to bet that a mill will take up an awful lot of it.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by squirrel

There's a pretty nice 3d printer in our school's Engineering classroom...we've had Engineering students on the robot team for a few years...and we have yet to figure out a robot part that we could print with it. I would look at other things to spend money on.

Saw this and had to comment: Skyhook's intake roller had a pair of hubs that came off a 3D printer, complete with the "standard" 6-hole bolt pattern. And the box containing Skyhook's IMU came off the same printer. And at that point, we'd had the printer about a month, maybe 2. When I was in college, we got some plugs for a robot's frame built on their high-quality one.

[rm -rf /]

If you're stuck for space and/or cash, you might consider a combo mill/lathe/drill. It won't do any of these tasks as well as the individual tools might, and it's small (but so, relatively, are the robots), but it wouldn't take up too much space and would at least provide you these capabilities at a lower cost than the individual machines.

I think that there are other teams who use one of these as (one of?) their primary machine.

A quick google search ("combo lathe mill") will show you a number. From what I've read, there's basically a price/quality relationship. The more you pay the better the tool, so, if you go this route, buy the best you can afford.

[George C]

If you're looking for larger machines, try industrial auctions. We picked up a Bridgeport in good condition for ~$750 including vice and a set of R8 collets. Just watch your voltages as many industrial machines are 600V. To meet school regualtions, we have to install a magnetic swtich as well and fix up the guarding.

[Aroki]

Originally Posted by George C

If you're looking for larger machines, try industrial auctions. We picked up a Bridgeport in good condition for ~$750 including vice and a set of R8 collets. Just watch your voltages as many industrial machines are 600V. To meet school regualtions, we have to install a magnetic swtich as well and fix up the guarding.

We have a used industrial machine store near us and got ourselves a Bridgeport for about that much, but we may be looking into converting it to cnc for about $4,000

[Nemo]

A low cost metal bending brake plus an inexpensive shear would be worth considering if you have a table to mount them on. Bent sheet parts are useful in lots of places. You can get both at Harbor Freight for a combined $200.

[lemiant]

H u

[AllenGregoryIV]

The Illuminations guide we posted a while go has a nice tool list in the appendix.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2623

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by invertedBottles

Last year we worked at the back of our teacher's physics classroom, we are now looking to convert half of the classroom into our robotics workshop, with some kind of semi-permanent division between the classroom and workshop.

I'm not trying to sound too much like an adult here, but has any of this been cleared with the school's administration or custodial departments? Just on my teaching experience alone I can tell you that it isn't a good idea to surprise either group. If you make one or the other angry you might end up finding a new Place to work whether you want to or not.

Space is another concern with big machines, I don't know what physics labs look like where you are, but from the ones at my school I can tell you that one Bridgeport with safety clearance will use up the full lab area. Also, does the teacher still have to teach in this room? In moSt states,there are regulations on what can be in a particular room based on the certified staff present. If you don't have a certified teache in industrial technology present a lot of school's won't have the insurance to cover potential injuries.

I'm not trying to shut you down on any big plans, but it always a shame to get everything put together and organized and then have to take it all down. I was offered a rediculous Haas CNC mill the other day on donation and had to turn it down because we don't have the floorspace and the maintenance department won't let us run electrical to where we do have space. Sometime things don't work out, and it is definately better to know ahead of time when they won't.

[invertedBottles]

After asking around, I believe we have the sponsor I have mentioned above, as well as a $2000 grant from our school's PTSA for tools. After subtracting the 2013 registration fee and our rainy day fund from last year's surplus, I believe we have around $5k-$7.5k to spend on tools.

edit:

Originally Posted by MrBasse

I'm not trying to sound too much like an adult here, but has any of this been cleared with the school's administration or custodial departments? Just on my teaching experience alone I can tell you that it isn't a good idea to surprise either group. If you make one or the other angry you might end up finding a new Place to work whether you want to or not.

Space is another concern with big machines, I don't know what physics labs look like where you are, but from the ones at my school I can tell you that one Bridgeport with safety clearance will use up the full lab area. Also, does the teacher still have to teach in this room? In moSt states,there are regulations on what can be in a particular room based on the certified staff present. If you don't have a certified teache in industrial technology present a lot of school's won't have the insurance to cover potential injuries.

I'm not trying to shut you down on any big plans, but it always a shame to get everything put together and organized and then have to take it all down. I was offered a rediculous Haas CNC mill the other day on donation and had to turn it down because we don't have the floorspace and the maintenance department won't let us run electrical to where we do have space. Sometime things don't work out, and it is definately better to know ahead of time when they won't.

That is an excellent reminder, I know our teacher has brought it up with the administration, but all the other points will have to be confirmed. The administration is really flexible and supportive, they have really worked with us so far, so hopefully there isn't much other problems.

I love all the other suggestions, I will have to research specific brands of tools and models. If anyone has a specific model that their team is using and it works great, PLEASE let me know. That is probably the biggest problem I have at the moment, finding a specific product that we know will do what we want/need, and last us at least a few seasons.

Edit x2:

Originally Posted by EricH

A good solid chop saw can probably do most of the functions of a miter saw and table saw (and to some extent a horizontal bandsaw); if you get one where the blade can slide in and out with respect to the pivot point, you get some limited table saw ability as well.

After more research, I have something to clarify. Am I wrong in saying a chop saw is a saw that cuts in a vertical plane, while a mitre saw is a type/variation of chop saw that allows you to also get angles on the cut? This is probably going to be one of the tools we need more urgently, because last year we handled all cuts (wood, metal, plastic) using either a circular saw, jig saw, or hack saws. I've been looking at a Makita LS1216L with goes for $600, which is also available with a stand. It is a sliding dual beveled compound model. Anyone have experience with this, or possibly a cheaper brand/model? I've yet to check local classified to see if there are any good deals around.

Revised Listing (all none tool suggestions have been taken down, most are generic and will be bought regardless):
1) many more drills (at least one right-angle w/ carbide bits, Makitas + DeWalts)
1) more hammers
1) more wrenches (allens with handles, ratcheting, sockets)
1) any tools that will help in getting accurate measurements (what else besides calipers?)
1) many vises, mounted on sturdy work tables (at least 6" expansion and 4" jaws)
1) more clamps (6 Quick Clamps 12", 4 Bar Clamps 18" opening)
1) dremel
2) drill press ($350 - 500, maybe spring for a Bridgeport mill, but a 2-axis vise can offer same capability)
2) miter saw (compound, sliding, single/dual beveled)
2.1) arbor press (a reasonably priced one)
3) band saw (horizontal or vertical? - Stout Pro 200)
3) bench grinder
3) disc/belt sander ($100-200)
4) lathe
4) mill (Bridgeport)
4.1) combo machine (lathe/mill/drill press - have not heard good things though)
5) reciprocating saw
6) welding equipment? (only if we have members learn)

We have contacted our local CC as well as a local technical high school. With City College of San Francisco, we actually went to a meeting of their robotics club in their workshop once, but as far as I know, they could not/did not offer their tools or services to us. The technical high school did not want to join forces with us, and were not willing to give us access to their machine shop either.

Originally Posted by Nemo

A low cost metal bending brake plus an inexpensive shear would be worth considering if you have a table to mount them on. Bent sheet parts are useful in lots of places. You can get both at Harbor Freight for a combined $200.

It does seem plenty useful. Are there manual and electric types of it? What does the shear do?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by invertedBottles

After more research, I have something to clarify. Am I wrong in saying a chop saw is a saw that cuts in a vertical plane, while a mitre saw is a type/variation of chop saw that allows you to also get angles on the cut? This is probably going to be one of the tools we need more urgently, because last year we handled all cuts (wood, metal, plastic) using either a circular saw, jig saw, or hack saws. I've been looking at a Makita LS1216L with goes for $600, which is also available with a stand. It is a sliding dual beveled compound model. Anyone have experience with this, or possibly a cheaper brand/model? I've yet to check local classified to see if there are any good deals around.

You're right. Most chop saws these days are miter saws as well. Matter of fact, the one you linked appears to be the general type that I was thinking of; I have experience with a DeWalt one (I think it was a DeWalt--it was yellow!). If you use them right, they can do a pretty good job of pretending to be a table saw. Make sure to get multiple blades--wood, aluminum, and steel cut differently--and some clamps/holders.

For the bandsaw question, a sliding miter saw will also do a pretty good job of imitating a horizontal bandsaw, at least on smaller and thinner parts. Start with a vertical bandsaw, probably a benchtop model or a smaller floor model.

The other thing that I keep forgetting: If you get a tool that you don't know how to use, before you use it, find someone who does (like the CC) to come in and show you. Saves time, saves frustration, probably saves eyes and fingers.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by invertedBottles

It does seem plenty useful. Are there manual and electric types of it? What does the shear do?

Bending brakes are manual. I imagine that powered ones exist, but it's really easy to bend thin stuff by hand.

Shear = cut. Search for "throatless shear" on Harbor Freight to see what we just bought. It seems to work nicely for small stuff.

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by squirrel

It sounds like you need put in some "shop class" time before you get too far along buying tools. Knowing how to use them is vital.

Agreed. A tool you don't know how to use is functionally useless.

[Andy A.]

Originally Posted by ratdude747

Agreed. A tool you don't know how to use is functionally useless.

At best. Just as often it's a liability to your work or your safety.