Shop Tools, Hand Tools, HELP?

[kellymc]

Revised Listing (all none tool suggestions have been taken down, most are generic and will be bought regardless):
1) many more drills (at least one right-angle w/ carbide bits, Makitas + DeWalts) - The makita drill/impact driver combo set is a nice set of tools
1) more hammers - specify types, ball peen, mallets????
1) more wrenches (allens with handles, ratcheting, sockets) - do you want metric or standard? Also, instead of buying a full set of wrenches, determine what size fasteners you are using and buy 5-10 wrenches separately in that size so you have a good supply - then buy 1 complete set of wrenches for when you come across that odd fastener.
1) any tools that will help in getting accurate measurements (what else besides calipers?) - Check out harbor freight, their electronic calipers go on sale for $9.99 often, there's a store in Newark and one in Santa Clara
1) many vises, mounted on sturdy work tables (at least 6" expansion and 4" jaws) - buy a good vise if you can afford it like a wilton - Alan steel in Redwood City has some nice Jet vises that are made in taiwan for good prices - stay away from the cheap vises at home depot/etc...
1) more clamps (6 Quick Clamps 12", 4 Bar Clamps 18" opening) - harbor freight - on sale often - you will also want some C-clamps as well
1) dremel - the definition of a dremel:" a tool that converts electricity to vibration" - do yourself a favor and buy a proxon instead, close to the same price and uses the same tools but is much higher quality and will last much longer.
2) drill press ($350 - 500, maybe spring for a Bridgeport mill, but a 2-axis vise can offer same capability) - Couple of options here, if you have the space go for a bridgeport, there's a business closing in redwood city that is selling a couple of mills on Thur/Friday this week (search craigslist for Mill and you will see the ad) keep in mind most of these machines require 3-phase power or an adapter, also the size etc.... you might be better off with a table top machine. For this there are a couple of options, one is a TAIG mill (around $1,000) that can easily be converted latter to CNC for another $1,000. Another good choice is the B20 mill from Grizzly, also convertible to CNC but more around $4K for this option - also factor about $2K for tooling in addition to the mill price
2) miter saw (compound, sliding, single/dual beveled) - search craigslist - you likely don't need a sliding saw so look for a good used one and buy a new carbide tipped blade
2.1) arbor press (a reasonably priced one) - don't bother, purchase a 20ton press from harbor freight - currently on sale
3) band saw (horizontal or vertical? - Stout Pro 200) - make sure the saw you buy is a metal cutting saw, if it's for wood, then you will need to add a gearbox to slow down the blade the to the right speeds. I wouldn't spend the money on the stout - if anything get a milwaukee portaband bandsaw and a table mount from swag offroad.
3) bench grinder - buy the disc/belt sander below first -
3) disc/belt sander ($100-200) - search c-list for a used machine with a 1/2 to 3/4 hp motor, also that sale I mentioned above in RWC has a couple listed -
4) lathe - We have a lathe we purchased from littlemachine shop, it's a nice table top unit that we mounted to a rolling cart, so far we have been able to make everything we need on this machine -
4) mill (Bridgeport) - see above
4.1) combo machine (lathe/mill/drill press - have not heard good things though) - agreed, these machines are a compromise
5) reciprocating saw -
6) welding equipment? (only if we have members learn) Our team has a 110 welder that we weld our aluminum frame with. I wouldn't recommend this as a way to go, if you can go TIG, however, I would push for alternative construction methods such as riveting, sheet metal construction if I were starting from scratch.

Lastly, to store all of these tools, you should get a rolling tool cabinet, again, I would recommend the 44" cabinet from Harbor freight

http://www.harborfreight.com/44-13-d...net-68784.html

you can find coupons on line for $349.00 for this cabinet to save even more money.

If you have any other questions or want some additional information send me a PM and we can talk, if you want to come see our tooling, we meet on Wed/Fridays and Saturdays getting ready for cal games.

Kelly
Mentor 766 MA Bears

[JJackson]

Many products from RIGID come with lifetime warranty on everything including batteries....
I'm not sure if this has been added but a good tap and die set is something great to have around

[Cory]

There should be a number of threads out there with a lot of the information you're looking for. I'm not sure if they have information on specific models of tools though.

3 in 1 machines are junk. Avoid them like the plague. You're basically throwing money out that you could save for quality machinery.

I would not purchase corded drills. The technology is such in cordless drills that there is no reason to purchase corded. We got rid of a corded drill we had because it had so much torque it was unsafe for inexperienced users.

You really don't need a sliding miter saw. We have this. $200 and it works great. High quality. Throw a nice carbide tipped blade on there and you can easily cut aluminum tube (absolutely do NOT cut solid/ferrous metal with any miter saw).

We purchased one of those 20 ton presses like mentioned earlier, used it for a year, and then gave it away. It's super inconvenient due to the limited travel of the bottle jack, as well as slop in the ram because of the construction method.

I would see if you can get the sponsor to just grant you the money, as opposed to them purchasing tools off a list. It makes more sense to add tools as you discover you need them, instead of trying to cover everything up front. Inevitably you will end up with a lot of tools you rarely/never use if you do the latter.

As soon as you cover your basic tool needs and are looking for machine tools I would purchase a lathe.

[rondinol]

Have you considered a second drill bit set and a drill bit sharpener? They may seem unnecessary but with drill bits many students tend to break them and leave them laying around. Leave one out and one kind of hidden away for that moment when you need that one size bit.

Furthermore with many tools being used bits tend to get dull and there becomes a collective pile of dull drill bits which tends not to be to fun to deal with.

These aren't necessarily but useful none the less.

[invertedBottles]

Originally Posted by kellymc

LOTS OF INFO TAKEN OUT

If you have any other questions or want some additional information send me a PM and we can talk, if you want to come see our tooling, we meet on Wed/Fridays and Saturdays getting ready for cal games.

Kelly
Mentor 766 MA Bears[/color]

That's a generous offer that I'd love to take you up on, but we probably won't be able to make it out anytime soon. We are also going to be at CalGames, we'll see you there. I love all the info, if I have any other questions I know who to ask for an answer! One things, regarding cutting tools, is there any one of the tools we could purchase that could perform essentially the same as other tools? Like EricH said on the previous page, a sliding miter saw can perform some of the bandsaw functions? It would not only save us space but time having to train members on only one tool vs two.

With any new tools, we will get experienced mentors or ask other teams to come out and teach us, or at least myself. It is my responsibility to see that all the tools are properly operated, so I will be willing to pass on the training. Having another student lose their fingers would be worse for me then losing one of my own!

The only problem we have with Craigslist and classifieds is the ads go up quickly, and require items to be picked up, sometimes quite far away. With out limited number of mentors, we can't really go anywhere on short notice. Plus, it's easier to point at a new product for a sponsor to purchas. We do not know if they are willing to provide direct funding yet.

Jackson and rondinol, good info. Will be kept in mind!

Originally Posted by Cory

You really don't need a sliding miter saw. We have this. $200 and it works great. High quality. Throw a nice carbide tipped blade on there and you can easily cut aluminum tube (absolutely do NOT cut solid/ferrous metal with any miter saw).

Thanks Cory, you have some really informational points! I've been reading that Makitas have the most accurate cuts in miter saws, but it seems you do think the Rigid works great. When cutting with the miter, what kind of clamps or other tools do you use to hold the material down? Do you have it on a dedicated stand, or some kind of table/bench/counter?

[Akash Rastogi]

According to google maps, San Francisco State University is very close to your high school, as is the City College of San Francisco. Those two will probably end up being two of the best resources you could possible establish in terms of machining capabilities and mentoring. Both are within two miles of Lowell HS.

Be sure to check both out very soon.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by invertedBottles

That's a generous offer that I'd love to take you up on, but we probably won't be able to make it out anytime soon. We are also going to be at CalGames, we'll see you there. I love all the info, if I have any other questions I know who to ask for an answer! One things, regarding cutting tools, is there any one of the tools we could purchase that could perform essentially the same as other tools? Like EricH said on the previous page, a sliding miter saw can perform some of the bandsaw functions? It would not only save us space but time having to train members on only one tool vs two.

With any new tools, we will get experienced mentors or ask other teams to come out and teach us, or at least myself. It is my responsibility to see that all the tools are properly operated, so I will be willing to pass on the training. Having another student lose their fingers would be worse for me then losing one of my own!

The only problem we have with Craigslist and classifieds is the ads go up quickly, and require items to be picked up, sometimes quite far away. With out limited number of mentors, we can't really go anywhere on short notice. Plus, it's easier to point at a new product for a sponsor to purchas. We do not know if they are willing to provide direct funding yet.

Jackson and rondinol, good info. Will be kept in mind!



Thanks Cory, you have some really informational points! I've been reading that Makitas have the most accurate cuts in miter saws, but it seems you do think the Rigid works great. When cutting with the miter, what kind of clamps or other tools do you use to hold the material down? Do you have it on a dedicated stand, or some kind of table/bench/counter?

I have no experience with Makita saws, so I cannot recommend it over a Makita, but our experience with Ridgid products in general has been very good.

In principle I am against paying $600 for a sliding compound miter saw. It's just not that much more useful than a regular miter saw, for FRC purposes. If you were framing up a house every day of the year and required the versatility and the durability of a professional grade tool it would be the right choice...but that isn't what we're doing in FRC.

I don't really see one as a replacement for a bandsaw or table saw. You can cut a 15"x15" square with a 12" sliding miter saw. I guess that's better than if it wasn't sliding, but it's nowhere near a real table saw and I'm not sure in what way it would be equivalent to a vertical bandsaw, as they are primarily used for contouring.

You should be able to find a fairly decent vertical bandsaw for a couple hundred dollars. With good blades and proper care it should cut aluminum up to 1/4" thick with no problem (inevitably people will cut steel with it, or shove aluminum through at about a zillion miles an hour and ruin your brand new blades though).


We use the clamp that came with the saw. We have a beat up folding table that we will often bolt the saw to and then wood screw down a stop to ensure repeatable length cuts for tubing that gets welded without being further processed on the mill. Otherwise we just use it on the ground.

[who716]

if you are on a tight budget, and you could only get like one or two machines i would go for a Drill press, so that your holes are more accuretly and drilling goes quicker and also a verticle band saw as for our team it saves us much time to just turn on the bandsaw cut a streight line or an acurretly cut angle then to use a hack saw.

[protoserge]

I think you need to quantify your need. For instance, "many more drills" could mean two or twenty. Look at how many sub-teams will be working on the robot and how many will be required to use the tool.


What productive capacity can the tools be used for?

I honestly don't believe in welding for FRC robot frames anymore and I find it a risk for students that is unnecessary (PPE, ventilation, sunburn). If this is a construction method, I feel it's best to outsource to a properly trained professional. I'll caveat that with the understanding being there are vo-tech students which may be able to accomplish this task as the exception.

Judging by what you've laid out, I would suggest taking your list and narrowing it down based on the importance of the tool, the number of tasks it can be use used for, and the quantity/cost associated. For example, a regular cordless drill can be used for 5 tasks in the build vs. a specialty tool that performs the same basic function, but isn't required (e.g. right angle drill). This would rate the cordless drill higher than a right angle drill.

If you do get cordless tools, look at the brand and the tools available. Stick with one brand to save on battery charger footprint, as well as allow for battery interchangeability.

My personal recommendation for a small-medium team (20-30):

Tools requiring only hands:

1. Auto-centering punch (qty 2) $3 each at Harbor Freight
2. 14.4V Drill - you don't need 18V and the lower weight will be nice over time (qty 3) + drill bits in common sizes (clearance and taps for standard hardware)
3. Ball-peen hammer (qty 2)
4. Straight Edge/T-square (qty 2)
5. Digital 6" Calipers (qty 3) ~$15 each Amazon/HF (Also buy a 100pk of batteries for ~$8 from Amazon, the LR44 die very quickly in the HF units)
6. Vise Grips (qty 4-6)
7. Hack Saw (qty 2)
8. Allen Set (usually cheaper in the set) (qty 3)
9. Socket Set (personal preference; cheaper in set)
10. Additional sockets and wrenches in common sizes for your robot (for#6, #8, #10, 1/4" hardware)

Shop tools requiring facility resources:

1. Drill press
2. Band saw
3. Press break
4. Sheet metal shear
5. Arbor press (bushings and keyways) NOTE: keyway broach sets are expensive.
6. Belt sander
7. Disc grinder
8. HF 7x12 lathe (#93799)

I highly recommend the Harbor Freight tool carts (with the associated high reviews). They are high quality and very durable.

I'm absolutely certain I didn't get everything, but hopefully you find my post a little useful.

[Akash Rastogi]

Seeing as how my team's bandsaw and drillpress were reported stolen today...


Invest in securing your belongings

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Seeing as how my team's bandsaw and drillpress were reported stolen today...


Invest in securing your belongings

Slight derailment...how do you steal a bandsaw and drillpress?

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by CalTran

Slight derailment...how do you steal a bandsaw and drillpress?

Some crook breaks in when nobody is around and he and a buddy haul it away in a generic white panel van. Since a stolen saw and a used saw look the same, it's an easy fence on their part.

I've heard of robots gettign stolen for scrap metal even... Please teams, do secure your stuff!

[Phyrxes]

A drywall square is also handy for dealing with plywood or sheet plastic in the sizes you may end up working with.

We picked up a couple things from Grizzly and have been happy with the two items below thus far this offseason.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-Vise-Brake/H3245
http://www.grizzly.com/products/30-M...y-Bender/G9952

[Cuog]

Some things you need to look at before blowing a bunch of money on tools is what do you have to work with, and where do you feel you're currently falling short?

First is space. How much space do you have to work with that you can permanently setup with your tools/machines/workbenches? If you have very little, you'll want to stick with small hand tools and a locking tool box with some cordless drills, and a nice bench vice(actually just get a nice bench vice, they're always good).

Secondly what mentor support do you have? I see you're looking at welding equipment, mill, lathe etc. These tools are great, can expand your capacity, and can be very safe when used properly. When used incorrectly things can go very bad very quick. If you don't have at least one mentor(better 2+) who plan to stick around and help teach and supervise the use of these machines then getting them will be a Very Bad Idea(tm).

Third Power, small bench-top machines can run off standard 15A 120V outlets. Larger lathes and mills will often require 240V, triple phase power, and sometimes even higher voltages. Part of why these machines sell for around the cost of the bench-top hobby equipment is because a hobbyist cant as easily support their power requirements. Welders can be particularly challenging as well. Even ones that run on 120V can draw a lot of current and pop breakers if there's other stuff on that circuit(do you really know the circuit layout at your school?). I can promise you having to call maintenance to reset breakers for you is not going to win you friends.

Finally when looking at a Mill and Lathe in particular do not forget the cost of tooling. To get well tooled and be able to start working with these machines will cost you AT LEAST what you spent on the machine in accessory tooling.


If I were starting with nothing, and had mentors with only some general knowledge of tools here's the order I would spend my money:

Tool box: something like this: http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/6-Draw...l-Chest/T10140

Mechanics Tool Set: craftsmen is a good middle of the road brand, you want full metric and SAE wrenches ratchets and sockets as well as a good assortment of screw drivers. Buy extras in the sizes you use most.

Hex key sets: Again I reccomend craftsmen for mid range, go for snapon/mac if you can afford it. Again you want both SAE and metric with extras in your most used sizes.

Cordless Drill: There's a lot out there that's great, I think DeWalt makes some nice lithium battery drills that most folks I know with them love. If you buy multiple buy the same so you can buy spare batteries most efficiently.

Full Drill Set in metric or SAE, both if you can afford it. These are usually ~100 dollars and have on of everything up to about a half inch dia.

Center Punch

Measuring tools: Big to small: some good length measuring tapes, a couple yard sticks, some metal ~ 1ft rulers, I also find some small 6 inch rulers useful, 6 inch digital or dial calipers(if you're a glutton for punishment verniers).

Combo square: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Econ...n-Square/G8072

Hack Saws and a variety of blade types

Assortment of Files: lots and lots all different shapes and sizes you can never have too many.

Dremel or similar tool. There's really no limit on what you can make a dremel tool do.

Pliers: standard, vice grips, needle nose

Hammers: Ball peen in large and small sizes, rubber head mallet, plastic face, or even better a deadblow hammer.

Good wire strippers: not just the cheapest you can get, the ones that pull the wire apart automatically can be quite nice.

Good crimp tool: Again you want something that's not going to leave you stranded on the field. Every years teams are bit by mysterious electrical problems traced back to bad crimps.

Digital Multi-Meter: Now that you've wired it up, it helps to be able to test it. Cheapo units will do, but go for a higher end unit if you can afford it.

Pop Rivet Gun: nice and light fastener setup, be sure to research when and how to use these to maximize their potential, I believe there's a lot of literature on the topic here on CD.

Soldering Station: I'm partial to Weller, but you'll want something you can control the temperature and get a good solid solder joint

Workbench: Something sturdy

Workbench mounted vice: Biggest and strongest you can find. Ideally this thing should be able to laugh at a jackhammer.

Sawzall: can be a poor man's replacement to a bandsaw for chopping through stock if you don't have the space. Really useful when you need to cut stuff off the bot without disassembling.

Jigsaw: Really great multipurpose tool for cutting lines or shapes in sheets of material.

Drill Press: Radials are nice, you'll want something that can go pretty slow when needed: floor or bench model: http://www.grizzly.com/products/5-Sp...ll-Press/G7946 http://www.grizzly.com/products/5-Sp...ll-Press/G7945

Drill Press Vice: There's a bunch of different designs pick what you like.

Drill Press XY Table: http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-...de-Table/G8750 I bought this one for my team last year, and it can make precision drilling a dream compared to a hand drill.

Tap and Die Set: You can go for both SAE and metric, or just pick which you want to use, and buy the other piecemeal as needed.

Bandsaw: http://www.grizzly.com/products/4-x-...-Bandsaw/G0622 Cutting through huge slabs of metal with a hacksaw is no fun, make life a bit easier on yourself.


Don't forget to buy blades and bits for many of the things listed here. Getting well outfitted with a good base of tools can be more important than playing with the more exotic tools like CNC, Lathes, Mills, welders 3D printers ETC.

If you have all of the stuff above, and still have the proper facility, and mentor support begin looking into more exotic tooling.

[invertedBottles]

I've still been reading, and many points I completely agree with. After discussing with our teacher mentor, we have decided to choose one or more of the following: drill press, band saw, and/or miter saw/chop saw. We have just met a new mentor who recently moved into the area that is experienced with all types of part manufacturing, including milling. Hopefully he'll be able to stick around and teach us. We will have sufficient space for these tools without having to worry about the schools wiring. All the other smaller suggestions, if mentioned, will probably be budgeted for. We have the storage space and would rather have things handy when we need it instead of running out at 9pm on the second to last day of build season to pickup something trivial.

I am personally still considering security options, together with our lead mentor. One of our considerations is installing a locking accordion door/wall to divide the classroom and workshop (possibly with a door on a panel. Does anyone know a more specific name for something like this? And how much it would run us? I think we do have admin approval for this. Our school's gym has a much larger version of this, which is a floor to ceiling wall made of several panels that folds into an accordion and slides out to form a complete wall. Ours doesn't have to powered.